There is no God

[INTP]

God exists way before our creation. So how can He be the unconsciousness of something that didn't even existed?

Weapons enabled us to protect ourselves from wild animals but that was not their original purpose. They were invented to invade the territory of other humanoid beings.

By the way, who said that God is our unconsciousness?

Where do you know that god existed before human?

People have worshipped things that they dont understand from the beginning of our times, they have worshipped sun and one tribe even worshipped an large cliff that made an shadow looking like human head. How is this not understanding the beginning of universe any different from those? All are fundamentally just something we dont understand.

You know that people create their perception of the world, its not the actual world as it is that we are perceiving, but highly subjective world we see. But the funny thing is that we are not conscious about the subjectivity of our perceptions. We are the creators of the world, but its not th real world we create, its our own worlds we are creating, but arent aware that we are creating our world ourselves.
Projection is a normal human phenomena, it happens all the time, we even project to our visual fiel all the time. What you see right now is mostly your brains adding stuff to your vision, its not all coming from your eyes, and whats coming from your eyes, is very limited compared to whats actually infront of your eyes.
Now projection also comes in when filling the gaps that we dont CONSCIOUSLY understand and can even interfere with our vision if we believe hard enough(people seeing ghosts etc).
The source of our projections is our unconsciousness(memories, repressed thoughts, some claim oir unlived life, thoughts that have yet to get intense enough to brake the treshold of consciousness(and are waiting for a proper moment to erupt) etc). When we project, we see our unconscious self in others, things in your mind that arent intense enought to come into consciousness by itself, but is interfering with your cognition and perception.
On what REASON(belief to a man made book about belief is not a reason) do you say that this couldnt happen with the concept of god?

Where do religious visions come from(and most importantly, when they usually happen)?
Why is it that peoples belief on god varies so much? And how do you know that yours is the right one?
Whats the common thing about all religions?
I assume you believe in old/new testament. Did you know that these texts in it are coming from older religions and are modified and censored heavily(missing texts and stuff left out from texts)?
Do you know whats the origin of these texts? Why dont you believe in those original texts instead of man made collection/version of those texts?
How do you know that those original texts arent written to guide people to healthier more balanced life and is just a guideline for life and earth to be in balance, instead of an creator of universe?
If someone claimed that god appeared to him in a dream and said something, would you take that as a word of god? Would you think hes just nuts?
If not, why is it any different that this happened ages ago?
Why do i have an idea that you are unable to answer these questions?

If we wouldnt had weapons to protect ourselves from predators, we wouldnt had the opportunity to attack other tribes. You can see this in some other apes. They dont use weapons against each other, just to protect themselves from predators. They do things like climb on a cliff when a predator comes and throw rocks on it. Weapon is just a tool used to survive.

The fact that god is our unconsciousness isnt told in some bible book, but is something figured out by many people when looking at religions. Buddhism is basically about this, except they just dont use word unconsciousness. The aim of enlightment in buddhism is to come conscious of unconscious mind. The idea of enlightment is similar to all religion, its just that in religions like christianity the enlightment comes in the form of projections, but imo you cant even call that real enlightment.

I can even explain the concept of afterlife in neurological terms if you want to.

 

[Lateralus]

The two rules of atheism:

1. There is no God.

2. You hate him.

Not possible. If someone hates God, he/she cannot be an atheist.

 

[Lateralus]

but in this scenario god made us loaded with all our problems, and god is omniscient, so god knew as he was making us that we would create a whole host of problems. that's akin to putting a kitten with a cold in a room with other kittens then punishing it for getting the other kittens sick. what was it going to do, not breathe? what should humans have done, locked themselves up in isolated chambers so they'd never make use of the flawed facilities that god gave them?

imo god needs to take some responsibility here.

If a creation sucks, blame the creator.

If the Christian God exists, he is either not omnipotent or he is malevolent.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

The two rules of atheism:

1. There is no God.

2. You hate him.

lol, ok.

 

[Lark]

Not possible. If someone hates God, he/she cannot be an atheist.

And yet it is so all the same.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I believe god gave us free will. In order to have free will, one must have options to choose from, otherwise there is no free will. We can choose god or not god.

It's like giving your son/daughter $10 to spend or save as they wish. As their parent, you may hope they put it into savings or use it to purchase something good. Instead they use it to buy alcohol, consume it, and get into a car accident. Is it the parent's fault because they gave their son/daughter $10? Or should the son/daughter take responsibility for the choices they made in how they utilized the money?

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

What I meant to say is: http://www.fungdark.com/2009/10/jesus-is-such-dicklol.html

I don't believe in god, I don't claim to know if a god exists, I highly doubt that god(if in existence) would come in the form of any one of the god-myths we learn of from humankind's long obsession with creating gods. This means I'm right, you're wrong(as far as anyone knows).

 

[Lateralus]

And yet it is so all the same.

No, you are incorrect.

Here's where you start trolling, typically.

 

[Lark]

No, you are incorrect.

Here's where you start trolling, typically.

I'm afraid not, how many threads have you seen about God posted by Peguy, myself or other believers on the forum?

Did any believers take out ads on london buses about the existence of God?

No, it would appear the God is something with preoccupies non-believers and atheists.

There's always a steady implication that they're "good guys" passing on a happy message which will benefit and better everyones lives simply for the hearing of it, which resembles some of the religious quarters which they admittedly find most vexatious to their spirit.

Now, dismiss that as trolling if you want Lateralus, I've noticed how you tend to do so with you're struggling with others posts.

 

[CuriousFeeling]

Good luck trying to prove that God doesn't exist through empirical methods. You're going to go insane doing such a thing. Negative evidence to disprove such existence, so technically and logically speaking, saying there is no God is erroneous.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

Good luck trying to prove that God doesn't exist through empirical methods. You're going to go insane doing such a thing. Negative evidence to disprove such existence, so technically and logically speaking, saying there is no God is erroneous.

Saying you don't believe in god is similar to saying you don't believe in Santa or Mermaids or Sea Ponies. Do Mermaids or Sea Ponies exist as real, living creatures? Probably not, but it's fucking delusional to say "I believe in god AND I KNOW WHICH IS THE RIGHT GOD"... there's quite a bit of evidence that casts doubt on the existence of an omnipotent god and virtually no evidence that a god exists and absolutely no evidence that any single god exists.

I BELIEVE IN SEA PONIES AND I WORSHIP SEA PONIES AND I KNOW WHICH SEA PONIES ARE THE TRUE SEA PONIES!

 

[Kraska]

but in this scenario god made us loaded with all our problems, and god is omniscient, so god knew as he was making us that we would create a whole host of problems. that's akin to putting a kitten with a cold in a room with other kittens then punishing it for getting the other kittens sick. what was it going to do, not breathe? what should humans have done, locked themselves up in isolated chambers so they'd never make use of the flawed facilities that god gave them?

imo god needs to take some responsibility here.

Sorry but we are not the victims here. God gave us the Earth, and a mind capable of doing decisions. It was OUR decision to start killing each other. We could protect ourselves from animals without destroying everything around us. We chosed not to. Destroying and killing are choises we have done in a conscious way although we could very easy avoid it.

We are the ones that need to take some responsability for our own actions.

 

[Lateralus]

I'm afraid not, how many threads have you seen about God posted by Peguy, myself or other believers on the forum?

I haven't counted. Have you? If an atheist starts a thread about God, does that mean they "hate God" (your words, not mine)?

Did any believers take out ads on london buses about the existence of God?

No, it would appear the God is something with preoccupies non-believers and atheists.

Perhaps that is true in the UK, I wouldn't know. The opposite is true in the US. And most forum members are Americans. You lose sight of this fact often.

There's always a steady implication that they're "good guys" passing on a happy message which will benefit and better everyones lives simply for the hearing of it, which resembles some of the religious quarters which they admittedly find most vexatious to their spirit.

Wrong country again. This is an American forum with a few UK members.

Now, dismiss that as trolling if you want Lateralus, I've noticed how you tend to do so with you're struggling with others posts.

I've seen how you "discuss" issues of morality, like homosexuality. You troll. My expectation is that you will do the same in this thread.

 

[Kraska]

You know that people create their perception of the world, its not the actual world as it is that we are perceiving, but highly subjective world we see. But the funny thing is that we are not conscious about the subjectivity of our perceptions. We are the creators of the world, but its not th real world we create, its our own worlds we are creating, but arent aware that we are creating our world ourselves.
Projection is a normal human phenomena, it happens all the time, we even project to our visual fiel all the time. What you see right now is mostly your brains adding stuff to your vision, its not all coming from your eyes, and whats coming from your eyes, is very limited compared to whats actually infront of your eyes.
Now projection also comes in when filling the gaps that we dont CONSCIOUSLY understand and can even interfere with our vision if we believe hard enough(people seeing ghosts etc).
The source of our projections is our unconsciousness(memories, repressed thoughts, some claim oir unlived life, thoughts that have yet to get intense enough to brake the treshold of consciousness(and are waiting for a proper moment to erupt) etc). When we project, we see our unconscious self in others, things in your mind that arent intense enought to come into consciousness by itself, but is interfering with your cognition and perception.
On what REASON(belief to a man made book about belief is not a reason) do you say that this couldnt happen with the concept of god?

You've put on some nice text here from where I could only understand that when I'm looking at my book and see the title "Blut und Silber" I'm actually imagining it and the title is different. I'm not an expert so I could have understood wrong.

Where do religious visions come from(and most importantly, when they usually happen)?
Why is it that peoples belief on god varies so much? And how do you know that yours is the right one?
Whats the common thing about all religions?
I assume you believe in old/new testament. Did you know that these texts in it are coming from older religions and are modified and censored heavily(missing texts and stuff left out from texts)?
Do you know whats the origin of these texts? Why dont you believe in those original texts instead of man made collection/version of those texts?
How do you know that those original texts arent written to guide people to healthier more balanced life and is just a guideline for life and earth to be in balance, instead of an creator of universe?
If someone claimed that god appeared to him in a dream and said something, would you take that as a word of god? Would you think hes just nuts?
If not, why is it any different that this happened ages ago?
Why do i have an idea that you are unable to answer these questions?

Religions don't vary at all. There is only one religion based on one story that has been interpretated in different ways.

If we wouldnt had weapons to protect ourselves from predators, we wouldnt had the opportunity to attack other tribes. You can see this in some other apes. They dont use weapons against each other, just to protect themselves from predators. They do things like climb on a cliff when a predator comes and throw rocks on it. Weapon is just a tool used to survive.

Weapons were very usefull when we used them as tools. However they became our detriment and created the mess in which we live today when we chosed to use them against each other.

The fact that god is our unconsciousness isnt told in some bible book, but is something figured out by many people when looking at religions. Buddhism is basically about this, except they just dont use word unconsciousness. The aim of enlightment in buddhism is to come conscious of unconscious mind. The idea of enlightment is similar to all religion, its just that in religions like christianity the enlightment comes in the form of projections, but imo you cant even call that real enlightment.

Could those people also perceive God as our unconsciousness? You said that is more than possible. If so then their point are invalid as well.

I can even explain the concept of afterlife in neurological terms if you want to.

No thanks, I need nobody for that.

I have one question. What created the little ball that exploded and created everything?

 

[Kraska]

Saying you don't believe in god is similar to saying you don't believe in Santa or Mermaids or Sea Ponies. Do Mermaids or Sea Ponies exist as real, living creatures? Probably not, but it's fucking delusional to say "I believe in god AND I KNOW WHICH IS THE RIGHT GOD"... there's quite a bit of evidence that casts doubt on the existence of an omnipotent god and virtually no evidence that a god exists and absolutely no evidence that any single god exists.

I BELIEVE IN SEA PONIES AND I WORSHIP SEA PONIES AND I KNOW WHICH SEA PONIES ARE THE TRUE SEA PONIES!

There is no evidence against God because your "evidence" can't answer even one basic question. What was before the Big Bang. And considering that we don't even have the starting point all the studies that Physics does are useless and can only be used to create even more weapons.

 

[Lark]

I haven't counted. Have you? If an atheist starts a thread about God, does that mean they "hate God" (your words, not mine)?


Perhaps that is true in the UK, I wouldn't know. The opposite is true in the US. And most forum members are Americans. You lose sight of this fact often.


Wrong country again. This is an American forum with a few UK members.


I've seen how you "discuss" issues of morality, like homosexuality. You troll. My expectation is that you will do the same in this thread.

You're all over the place. Again. Anyway, I'm not a troll and you've nothing new to say so I'll be the grown up and call it a day.

 

[CuriousFeeling]

Saying you don't believe in god is similar to saying you don't believe in Santa or Mermaids or Sea Ponies. Do Mermaids or Sea Ponies exist as real, living creatures? Probably not, but it's fucking delusional to say "I believe in god AND I KNOW WHICH IS THE RIGHT GOD"... there's quite a bit of evidence that casts doubt on the existence of an omnipotent god and virtually no evidence that a god exists and absolutely no evidence that any single god exists.

I BELIEVE IN SEA PONIES AND I WORSHIP SEA PONIES AND I KNOW WHICH SEA PONIES ARE THE TRUE SEA PONIES!

Indeed, one can't prove the existence of Santa, sea ponies, mermaids, etc, either. It does seem a bit ridiculous to even pursue to disprove their existence either.

There are many spiritual avenues, and it is personal choice which path one takes. Each to their own. However, it takes a different capacity to grasp the god concept than that of science. I have doubts that there are scholastically published scientific studies where they actually disprove an existence of an omnipotent god. It's simply an area that we in the science community do not attempt to study because not only don't we have to tools to do so, but our studies are focused primarily on things that can be proven or disproved. As time has progressed, especially since the 19th century, scientific philosophy has shifted away from connecting the metaphysical with the physical sciences. Yet, even reputable scientists in history that have shaped the course of modern physical science, have indeed sought a spiritual explanation to the phenomena they witness. For example, according to an A&E documentary, Sir Issac Newton was a Protestant, and at one point of his scientific studies he encountered great distress with the divide between the way he studied the physical sciences because it did not include the spiritual side of natural phenomena, in comparison to spirituality. Thus, in one point of his scientific career, he sought to understand science and gain spiritual enlightenment from it, fuse a connection with physics and God.

Therefore, science and religion as well as the arts are parts of the same tree of knowledge that we have as human beings. We could go down the avenue to say that human beings don't have spiritual side to them to some extent... even if it's in a non-religious way. Our perceptions of reality around us... could even say that's a lie too. But, we don't live in an environment like The Matrix. Our minds have evolved complex ways to understand the world around us, several avenues. If faith is the avenue one decides to seek truth, then it is their personal decision. If it is empirical tangible evidence that one decides to seek truth by, then it is their personal decision.

 

[miss fortune]

to say there is or isn't a god either way is possibly a mistake, since the definition of god is super vague to begin with and we don't even know exactly what deity is being debated (though considering that this is the internet and the OP poster is from the US, the most logical assumption would be that the deity in choice is the christian god)

My basic conclusions are that:
A. if there is a god who is omniscient and omnipotent and all that shit he's a total bastard
B. A more vague concept of something bigger could be equated with the laws of physics and such (most of which explain how the universe words are still unknown and have a lot of power over us and we can hope that they sway in the direction of good things happening!)
C. the concept of "god" kind of is like wrapping up all of the laws of science into one neat little package that we can petition in order for things to go our way or blame when they don't
D. the concept of god and religious laws were instrumental in the creation of organized societies of humanity, because the threat of being eaten by an 8 headed octopus with razor sharp teeth for all of eternity is even worse than spending the afternoon in stocks and pillars
E. are we debating whether the human construct of god exists or not? or whether there's something bigger that controls stuff? or whether there's some old guy in the sky who wags his finger and tsks when someone covets their neighbor's ass?


F. are you trying to troll a fight between the hardcore atheists and religious people on the board swordpath?

 

[Nicodemus]

Defy me.

You win.

 

[Lark]

Saying you don't believe in god is similar to saying you don't believe in Santa or Mermaids or Sea Ponies. Do Mermaids or Sea Ponies exist as real, living creatures? Probably not, but it's fucking delusional to say "I believe in god AND I KNOW WHICH IS THE RIGHT GOD"... there's quite a bit of evidence that casts doubt on the existence of an omnipotent god and virtually no evidence that a god exists and absolutely no evidence that any single god exists.

I BELIEVE IN SEA PONIES AND I WORSHIP SEA PONIES AND I KNOW WHICH SEA PONIES ARE THE TRUE SEA PONIES!

See to be honest, I'm interesting in honest exchanges with anyone who is interested in spirituality and philosophy without being a believer in one or another thing I profess to believe in but when points like this are made is gives me doubts its such a good mindset to have.

Stretching your argument to absurdity and projecting absurdity onto others isnt a great way to engage in real dialogue.