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Cultural appropriation

Viridian

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I've been reading a few things about the appropriation of elements of other cultures by the dominant ones - usually white American culture - and how it can result in "exoticization" of such non-dominant cultures or use of their symbols without respect or knowledge towards them. For instance, the use of Native American warbonnets/headdresses by white people (outside of the proper ceremonial occasions), as well as dressing up as an "Indian" for Halloween* can be quite offensive to those cultures.

With that in mind, I do wonder... Considering the way cultures interact, is appropriation part of the whole "coexisting cultures" deal? What is or isn't appropriative? Are "Chinese" restaurants with food adapted for non-Chinese tastes offensive/imperialistic? Where do we draw the line?

* Look up "Pocahottie". I dare you.
 

Lark

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Although the dressing up as indians was originally a homage to them, like the noble savage idea, it was part of the Boston Tea Party.
 

Rasofy

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Your thread is good but it is very broad.
Let's see...most people tend to see their cultures as the best one avaiable. Mocking other cultures is a side effect. A side effect that requires knowledge of other cultures (in some cultures the access to this kind of information is difficult, so they don't have the opportunity to do that).
When cultures clash, people either:
a) Think people of the other culture should be enlightened (e.g. China in regards to animal rights)
b) Make fun (e.g. muslims and their 72 virgins)
c) Accept they are different, but a bit weird (e.g. England and monarchy)
d) Ignore (e.g. African cultures)
 

Mole

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The best thing we can do for another culture is to learn the language. When we learn to speak like them, we become them. And strangely enough, when we learn to speak another language, we appreciate our own even more.
 

poppy

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So far in my experience it seems that the best way to know what is and is not cultural appropriation is to listen to and seek out the opinions of people from those cultures. Listening without being defensive is hard, but possible. Coming up with a clear standard for what constitutes cultural appropriation is probably even harder, because it is so intensely contextual.
 

Viridian

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So far in my experience it seems that the best way to know what is and is not cultural appropriation is to listen to and seek out the opinions of people from those cultures. Listening without being defensive is hard, but possible. Coming up with a clear standard for what constitutes cultural appropriation is probably even harder, because it is so intensely contextual.

Yes, I wanted to hear minorities' thoughts on this issue - particularly Cze's, since she knows quite a lot about this sociology stuff. :yes:

The catch, though, is that it's hard to extrapolate from "This person of X minority finds Y offensive" to "This Y thing is offensive to all X people", since you put them into the position of Ambassador of Xtopia - thus holding one person accountable for their whole ethnicity/sexuality/whatever in the same way that, say, a person of X minority acting stereotypical is "an embarassment" to all Xers, which doesn't happen with straight white males (well, except for Pauly Shore, disgrace to white men everywhere). It's like that Wanda Sykes routine where she says she had to "act properly" in front of white people (look it up, it's awesome :D) before Obama became the US President.
 

Coriolis

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With that in mind, I do wonder... Considering the way cultures interact, is appropriation part of the whole "coexisting cultures" deal? What is or isn't appropriative? Are "Chinese" restaurants with food adapted for non-Chinese tastes offensive/imperialistic? Where do we draw the line?
A few relevant thoughts:

1. I have heard/read objections to the use of Native American cultural elements by those not of that culture. This has often been in the context of new age or neo-Pagan spirituality, where someone or some group adopts some practice or follows some myth of Native Americans. Some people believe this is disrespectful of the original native culture. To me, it is disrespectful only if one does it superficially, without attempting to learn about the real meaning and history behind what one is appropriating.

2. The U.S. is big on appropriating the superficial elements of all sorts of foreign or "exotic" cultures. A day at Epcot Center in Florida is sufficient evidence of this. It is unfortunate since our nation is made up largely of immigrants, who came here with much to add, and unfortunately much to lose, culturally at least.

3. The flip side of questioning the appropriation of other cultures is asking whether we must be bound by our own culture, meaning the culture into which we are born and raised. What if we marry into a different culture? Is it "valid" to learn about and enjoy the culture of our in-laws? What if we simply find beauty and meaning in a different culture? I can find no objection, if someone earnestly tries to understand what they are "appropriating".

4. Victor raises a pertinent point in mentioning language. It is an important conduit of culture. Learning how to communicate in another language is more than learning grammar and vocabulary; it is learning to communicate in a different way, and to see things through others' eyes. Another area where we Americans fall very, very short.
 

ewomack

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There's a line between appropriation and exploitation. All cultures seem to appropriate to some degree, which is a natural and often healthy outcome of interaction between cultures. It's when that interaction becomes one-sided and exploitative that things turn ugly. Europeans in the 19th century committed a massive mistake by assuming they were racially superior when really they only possessed arguably superior tools and technology. The Japanese brought that entire line of thinking into question in the very early 20th century (1902 - 1906?) by appropriating European means of warfare and nearly obliterating the entire Russian fleet. For the first time Europeans began to question their racial superiority, though some continue to do so in light of huge evidence to the contrary, not to mention the evidence that "races" don't really exist except as a lingering social phenomenon. But as long as empires exist we'll have cultural imperialism, but we seem to have come up with new ways of justifying it rather than racial or "manifest destiny" means, though variations on that thinking still persists in multiple places even today.
 

Viridian

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A few relevant thoughts:

1. I have heard/read objections to the use of Native American cultural elements by those not of that culture. This has often been in the context of new age or neo-Pagan spirituality, where someone or some group adopts some practice or follows some myth of Native Americans. Some people believe this is disrespectful of the original native culture. To me, it is disrespectful only if one does it superficially, without attempting to learn about the real meaning and history behind what one is appropriating.

Yes, that seems to match the main objections I have heard. I admit, not without shame, that I happen to own a dreamcatcher I bought from a street vendor and use it mainly as a decorative element in my room - despite not even being American (unless we're talking about the continent).

Not to mention that these aesthetics often meld all the different Native American cultures into a mishmash of elements clumsily placed under the same umbrella.

2. The U.S. is big on appropriating the superficial elements of all sorts of foreign or "exotic" cultures. A day at Epcot Center in Florida is sufficient evidence of this. It is unfortunate since our nation is made up largely of immigrants, who came here with much to add, and unfortunately much to lose, culturally at least.

This raises an intriguing question - considering the status of United States as a nation so influenced by its immigrants, is there such a thing as a "pure" American culture? Or is it, like Frankenstein's monster, a mélange of different external elements without its own identity?

3. The flip side of questioning the appropriation of other cultures is asking whether we must be bound by our own culture, meaning the culture into which we are born and raised. What if we marry into a different culture? Is it "valid" to learn about and enjoy the culture of our in-laws? What if we simply find beauty and meaning in a different culture? I can find no objection, if someone earnestly tries to understand what they are "appropriating".

That's a good point. Although it's a dangerous path to tread. :peepwall:

4. Victor raises a pertinent point in mentioning language. It is an important conduit of culture. Learning how to communicate in another language is more than learning grammar and vocabulary; it is learning to communicate in a different way, and to see things through others' eyes. Another area where we Americans fall very, very short.

True. Language is a facet of culture, after all.
 

iwakar

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There are a lot of sports teams with Native American mascots and names that are a vestige of racism. Some teams have done away with these themes and some have defended them as "cultural history." I think that's bullsh*t.

These examples in general are about ignorance, intellectual lethargy, and cultural insensitivity rather than cultural appropriation. If someone started a team named the Northtown Negroes or New Braunfels Gerries --f*cking heads would roll.

A better example would be all of the words that people believe are English, but were borrowed. Pajamas, khaki, and jodhpurs are all Hindi.
 

poppy

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Yes, I wanted to hear minorities' thoughts on this issue - particularly Cze's, since she knows quite a lot about this sociology stuff. :yes:

The catch, though, is that it's hard to extrapolate from "This person of X minority finds Y offensive" to "This Y thing is offensive to all X people", since you put them into the position of Ambassador of Xtopia - thus holding one person accountable for their whole ethnicity/sexuality/whatever in the same way that, say, a person of X minority acting stereotypical is "an embarassment" to all Xers, which doesn't happen with straight white males (well, except for Pauly Shore, disgrace to white men everywhere). It's like that Wanda Sykes routine where she says she had to "act properly" in front of white people (look it up, it's awesome :D) before Obama became the US President.

That's very true, making one individual the representative of their race is a serious issue. For it to work in this case, those accused of cultural appropriation would have to be able to both avoid going on the defensive, and to be in favor of opening a dialogue rather than accepting one individual's comments as coming from an entire race. I think the motivation is different here than it is when we stereotype a race negatively based on one individual.
 

Viridian

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There are a lot of sports teams with Native American mascots and names that are a vestige of racism. Some teams have done away with these themes and some have defended them as "cultural history." I think that's bullsh*t.

These examples in general are about ignorance, intellectual lethargy, and cultural insensitivity rather than cultural appropriation. If someone started a team named the Northtown Negroes or New Braunfels Gerries --f*cking heads would roll.

That's a fine example, and one that is often brought up when discussing this stuff. :yes:

cartoonwhichone.jpg


A better example would be all of the words that people believe are English, but were borrowed. Pajamas, khaki, and jodhpurs are all Hindi.

Am I to understand, given your comments, that you acknowledge the possibility of non-imperialistic cultural appropriation? If I use the word "pajamas" without knowledge of its etymology, is it disrespectful? :thinking:

That's very true, making one individual the representative of their race is a serious issue. For it to work in this case, those accused of cultural appropriation would have to be able to both avoid going on the defensive, and to be in favor of opening a dialogue rather than accepting one individual's comments as coming from an entire race. I think the motivation is different here than it is when we stereotype a race negatively based on one individual.

Yeah... We have to make due without having possession of The Big Book Of What Is And What Isn't Appropriative. :biggrin: At least in that case one is theoretically open to learning and listening. It's complicated - ain't easy having a dialogue when one clearly has a superior position of power, if only sociologically. :shrug:

Here's something interesting. I read a few days ago an article which decried The Help - a book/movie which my mother liked but I didn't read - as perpetuating an "easy" cultural narrative (or something like that). When I read things like that, I begin to wonder (a) if there's a mainstream work that isn't "problematic", to use their phrase, and (b) how they'd change the works they critique so they would be less so.

Me, I think we whites need to leave making movies about race to people of color, or at least academics with experience in the area. Maybe then we can stop making eyes roll.

Aw, crap, I'm going off topic...
 

iwakar

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Am I to understand, given your comments, that you acknowledge the possibility of non-imperialistic cultural appropriation? If I use the word "pajamas" without knowledge of its etymology, is it disrespectful? :thinking:

Web definitions of cultural appropriation are neutral, but allow for a negative bent.
 

iwakar

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[MENTION=12223]Viridian[/MENTION] Well riddle me this... in Mexico, jeans are referred to as los jeans --a blatant appropriation from English. Do you feel offended?
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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The world is becoming one big melting pot...Or will be eventually.

Why not?
 

Viridian

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Web definitions of cultural appropriation are neutral, but allow for a negative bent.

That was one of my original questions - whether or not appropriation is always a negative/disrespectful/hegemonic process.

Yours is an interesting answer - factually sound, but definitely not what I was expecting... :rly???:

Well riddle me this... in Mexico, jeans are referred to as los jeans --a blatant appropriation from English. Do you feel offended?

Well, I'm not from an English-speaking country, so... :biggrin:

To answer your question the best I can, I think it's a different situation, since not only is the American cultural industry (for lack of a better term) pretty ubiquitous and pervasive, but the USA itself is pretty hegemonic, so I think the field is far from level.

It's like the "The Last Airbender vs. Thor" casting issue: is casting a black guy to play an originally white character as bad as casting a bunch of white guys to play originally Inuit/Asian/whatever characters? There are factors outside the issue in focus to consider, I think.

At least, that's my perception...
 
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I think a lot of this is much ado about nothing. When you start making rules about what others can and can't find significant or meaningful, then you get in trouble. Everyone should do their own thing and not worry about what other people are doing. I know this is extremely unpopular, but I also don't think that the aggrieved culture should have the sole power to determine what is offensive.
 

iwakar

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That was one of my original questions - whether or not appropriation is always a negative/disrespectful/hegemonic process.

Yours is an interesting answer - factually sound, but definitely not what I was expecting... :rly???:



Well, I'm not from an English-speaking country, so... :biggrin:

To answer your question the best I can, I think it's a different situation, since not only is the American cultural industry (for lack of a better term) pretty ubiquitous and pervasive, but the USA itself is pretty hegemonic, so I think the field is far from level.

It's like the "The Last Airbender vs. Thor" casting issue: is casting a black guy to play an originally white character as bad as casting a bunch of white guys to play originally Inuit/Asian/whatever characters? There are factors outside the issue in focus to consider, I think.

At least, that's my perception...

Where are you from?
 
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