abortion

[Ivy]

I guess i'm looking at the situation quite irrationally. I believe the things that i believe because of the way i feel about them, i can't really give you a reason as to why i believe what i have said,other than that it feels right to me, however i will say that my mother was 16 years old when she had me, i don't believe that she was emotionally or financially read to have me, but i'm damn sure that she decided to keep me around. My mother loved me, and wanted to keep me and she found ways to do that and i think that saying someone is not financially ready or emotionally ready is just an excuse. I think people should own up to what they did. If they conceived a child knowing that they weren't ready, it was their own mistake. However, if a woman was raped, she had no control what so ever over getting pregnant, she had no choice, and i guess thats where i see that it might be okay. I guess i just believe in doing what is right, and i don't see abortion as the right thing to do unless the mother had no control of the situation what so ever. I understand what you are saying as far as that it has to be all or nothing, but there seems to be exceptions to all rules..right?

I know you aren't picking on me, i also have trouble trying to explain myself sometimes, so i don't mind you expecting me to explain stuff.

This line of reasoning squicks me out a little. It almost sounds like having the child is punishment for irresponsible sexuality. To be quite honest this is why I became more pro-choice when I became a mother- it is SUCH a huge responsibility that nobody should go into it if it's not what they want. I don't disagree that people should be aware of possible consequences when they make choices, but if they don't, I don't see forcing them to reproduce (when you wouldn't force another pregnant woman to reproduce if she hadn't been irresponsible) as a reasonable consequence.

I'm extremely ambivalent on this topic as a whole (as I am on most topics) but there are certain aspects of it that I have strong univalent feelings about.

 

[Mempy]

I guess i'm looking at the situation quite irrationally. I believe the things that i believe because of the way i feel about them, i can't really give you a reason as to why i believe what i have said,other than that it feels right to me, however i will say that my mother was 16 years old when she had me, i don't believe that she was emotionally or financially read to have me, but i'm damn sure that she decided to keep me around. My mother loved me, and wanted to keep me and she found ways to do that and i think that saying someone is not financially ready or emotionally ready is just an excuse. I think people should own up to what they did. If they conceived a child knowing that they weren't ready, it was their own mistake. However, if a woman was raped, she had no control what so ever over getting pregnant, she had no choice, and i guess thats where i see that it might be okay. I guess i just believe in doing what is right, and i don't see abortion as the right thing to do unless the mother had no control of the situation what so ever. I understand what you are saying as far as that it has to be all or nothing, but there seems to be exceptions to all rules..right?

I know you aren't picking on me, i also have trouble trying to explain myself sometimes, so i don't mind you expecting me to explain stuff.

Ah, the difference in your position and several others', including mine, is the focus of your argument: you focus on responsibility and owning up to actions, while we're focusing more on the consequences for the child if the mother is not prepared to care for it. The severe consequences for some children who grow up in homes that don't want them and can't properly care for them (and the consequences for the mothers), regardless of intent and regardless of responsibility, are my main argument FOR the right to abort babies. You seem to have been a lucky one, and I'm VERY glad you're around, but I know not all children are as lucky as you (not to say you didn't have similar bumps in the road to everyone else, but rather that some children are just given crap when they enter this world).

It's hard to say some children are better off not existing, because it's almost a purely philosophical argument, but seeing the squalor and abuse some children needlessly suffer from makes me wonder how many aborted babies are spared from that.

I could really care less about punishing everyone for their mistakes. Most people deserve a second chance, and I would give that to them if I could, but what's done can't be undone, and tough choices must be made once a child is conceived.

Edit: Also, Ivy had good points. Yeah, that whole line of reasoning and approach to punishment squicks me too, for exactly Ivy's reasons and more.

 

[scantilyclad]

Oh dear, i'm not trying to say that having the child is punishment for irresponsible sexuality, i had a child out of irresponsible sexuality, and i don't consider it to be a punishment at all, if anything i consider it to be a blessing. I'm going to go ahead and choose to step away from this topic, because no one is right or wrong, and i do agree with some of the points you have made, but the things i say are really the reasons as to why I could never have an abortion. If other women choose to, then they choose to, and i would not judge anyone because of that. I've had friends who have chosen abortion and i understand it is a very personal and difficult decision to make, and i can understand why some would choose this route. I just feel like i'm being ganged up on a little bit( i know this is not your intention but it's how i'm feeling), and i understand that my opinions are a bit irrational, but i would just prefer not to discuss this any longer because i don't intend to offend anyone with such a touchy subject.

 

[Ivy]

I can only speak for myself but I promise I'm not offended and I hope you're not either. It is a serious subject and people have strong feelings about it, and that's okay. This has been a pretty civil conversation so far- I think we should hi five ourselves for being able to have a civil discussion of abortion for almost a whole day! Even if it goes downhill now.

 

[scantilyclad]

Oh i'm definitely not offended, this subject just puts a lump in my throat sometimes, but i do think we deserve a high five!, so *high five*

 

[Ivy]

I hear you on lumpy throat syndrome. My idealistic opinion is that we should work on changing society to make abortion irrelevant or at least extremely rare. We need to work on poverty, easy access to birth control, and mental health safety nets. We need to eradicate stigmas on sexual education and improve general education so that people are not stuck in low places and have a wider perspective. If we did this we could pretty much say goodbye to abortion except in cases where it is medically necessary.

My realistic opinion on this is that the above is a Star Trek idealistic fantasy society, but that in the meantime it doesn't make sense to outlaw abortion and in effect punish individuals for societal problems. But that doesn't mean I can't mourn the fact that it happens.

 

[Mempy]

Oh dear, i'm not trying to say that having the child is punishment for irresponsible sexuality, i had a child out of irresponsible sexuality, and i don't consider it to be a punishment at all, if anything i consider it to be a blessing. I'm going to go ahead and choose to step away from this topic, because no one is right or wrong, and i do agree with some of the points you have made, but the things i say are really the reasons as to why I could never have an abortion. If other women choose to, then they choose to, and i would not judge anyone because of that. I've had friends who have chosen abortion and i understand it is a very personal and difficult decision to make, and i can understand why some would choose this route. I just feel like i'm being ganged up on a little bit( i know this is not your intention but it's how i'm feeling), and i understand that my opinions are a bit irrational, but i would just prefer not to discuss this any longer because i don't intend to offend anyone with such a touchy subject.

So can I. Totally not offended and wasn't even starting to feel that way. Actually, I completely respect that you have your opinion and your own reasons for not wanting an abortion for yourself, and just because you're not about to make a case about it doesn't mean it isn't valid. My opinions and yours differ, but it doesn't mean I can't follow your logic.

Haha, Ivy, I agree. High fives all around! *hi fives hi fives* I was thinking the same thing about how surprisingly and admirably composed this discussion has been.

 

[wedekit]

Then you have certain people like me who think natural rights and stuff like that is crap, and has nothing to do with reality, and think of course it is not wrong to kill a fetus, just like it's not wrong to kill a person or an animal. All ethics is arbitrary and that these debates are utterly pointless, objectively and subjectively.

These debates are not pointless when you live in a society. Sure we might not have some kind of instinctual moral code embedded in us, but in order for a society to be stable we must have order. There is no place for moral relativism in society. Ethics serve as a reference point that connects all citizens together, and when we stop believing in any kind of absolute truths we lose the very core of our society. We will then fall from order into chaos because we will have nothing that binds us together.

No one wants to live in a society full of people that believe murdering someone is not wrong. How could we feel safe letting our children leave the house to go to school? Do you believe that stealing and sexually abusing children is not wrong either? How about tying a gay man to a fence, torturing him, and leaving him to die? Now all Matthew Shepard's parents have left of him is the organization they created to stop hate crimes because two men thought it was perfectly acceptable to kill another person. Especially a homosexual person.

These things are not relative. These are things done by selfish people who only think about what they want and never consider how their actions affect others.

We live in a time where the laws that were intended to serve as a guide for ethical behavior or being pushed to their very "legal" limits, which is not what they were designed for. Abortion is just another issue that is able to slip through the cracks because no one believed that such a large number of women and men would prefer to run away from the consequences of their actions. This is the easy way out; the "American Way".

 

[disregard]

An abortion in a controlled environment is better than an abortion in an uncontrolled environment.

 

[cafe]

I hear you on lumpy throat syndrome. My idealistic opinion is that we should work on changing society to make abortion irrelevant or at least extremely rare. We need to work on poverty, easy access to birth control, and mental health safety nets. We need to eradicate stigmas on sexual education and improve general education so that people are not stuck in low places and have a wider perspective. If we did this we could pretty much say goodbye to abortion except in cases where it is medically necessary.

My realistic opinion on this is that the above is a Star Trek idealistic fantasy society, but that in the meantime it doesn't make sense to outlaw abortion and in effect punish individuals for societal problems. But that doesn't mean I can't mourn the fact that it happens.

Yeah, this.

My perspective is that abortion takes an innocent life, but making it illegal will not stop it and will probably not even reduce it by much. We need to address the whys of abortion if we want to reduce it. Women shouldn't have to choose between the quality of their own lives and the lives of their babies.

 

[elfinchilde]

I add my confusion to this. Rape and incest exceptions have never made sense to me. Either it's murder or it's not. To me, if you make exceptions then you have started sliding down the slippery slope. You've already endorsed abortion, now it's just a matter of on whose terms it's done.

It reminds me of the old punch line, "Well, now we know you're a whore, we just have to haggle on price."

Which was the point Jennifer and I were making: that what's at issue was never the baby's "right to live". Rather, that it is circumstances and society which dictates what is 'right' or 'wrong', at that moment in time.

The focus was always on the mother. but because that is tricky, they shift it to the absolute of the baby instead: black or white. Yes or no. And when this theory is interjected by reality, they create 'exceptions'.

Without seeing (?) that start to end, they have never considered from the baby's point of view, as they purportedly claim.

So what you have are two sides arguing on unequal grounds. Pro life thinks it's arguing from the baby's right. Pro-choice thinks it's arguing for a woman's right.

Both sides do not see the actual complexity: that abortion is actually about the weighing of the value of one life over another.

And that is the actual controversy.

 

[lowtech redneck]

So far, this thread has thankfully remained civil. That speaks volumes about the quality of people we have on this site.

Like many people have already mentioned, I find it interesting that this extremely complicated issue usually revolves around two dichotomous positions. Its especially interesting in light of the fact that opinion surveys usually indicate that a majority (or at least a very large plurality) of respondents do not hold such black and white positions. If the issue were left to majority vote within the states, most states would probably allow abortion up to and including the third month of pregnancy, but not after except when the life of the mother was in danger or when the fetus has a terminal birth defect. As far as politicized positions on this issue are concerned, politicians and advocates adopt minimum winning coalitions that currently result in most "pro-choice" candidates being opposed to partial-birth abortion, and most "pro-life" candidates advocating that abortions be allowed in cases of rape, incest, or when the life of the mother is in danger.

The issue essentially rests on two fundamental questions (three, if you want to debate whether humans have rights):
1.) At what point does a zygote/embryo/fetus qualify as human life? The second attribute is rarely in dispute, so the question really becomes, "what does it mean to be human, and when does someone obtain those attributes?" Note that "human" and "personhood" are distinct concepts-otherwise, infants and severely retarded adults would not qualify as human.
2.) At whichever point that a zygote/embryo/fetus becomes human, which rights take precedence; the right to life or the right to physical liberty? This is often the point at which questions regarding the "culpability" of the mother (rape versus consensual risky activity) becomes a factor.

Have I left anything out?

Myself, I lean strongly towards the pro-life position (unusual for an agnostic), but the sheer complexity of the issue prevents me from harshly judging any pro-choice position (except when children that can survive outside the womb are aborted for non-medical reasons-and I certainly don't consider psychological factors to be sufficiently medical under those circumstances).

 

[Athenian200]

I think that abortion is perfectly acceptable. Life is only valuable after it achieves some degree of sentience, and fetuses are not at that stage.

If you disagree, then you should also consider it wrong to harm animals.

I would consider it wrong to destroy a sentient machine, as a comparison. In other words, I believe that it is sentience, and not life, that is valuable. Life alone is little more than a sophisticated, self-sustaining chemical process (think of bacteria). It's awareness, a sense of will, and processing that make it meaningful.

Note that I respect the intentions of those who disagree with me (preventing murder), I simply believe they are mistaken about the nature of fetuses.

 

[mooky]

I think that this discussion has remained very civil, for such a heated topic, if only the authorities could see other points of view as reasonably.

I think we all feel for the babies that are aborted.

I think we all feel that sometimes its necessary, we all realize that losing the possibility of life is much better than being unwanted, because that ruins 2 lives.

However I feel that most abortions are done because the women involved are to scared of raising children, They use the excuses of not being ready financially or emotionally, but in most cases I think that its just that they are to scared to take the plunge into a unknown world.

I myself had no experience of babies before I had my own.
I was 22.
I had no support when having my first, my parents made it clear that they wouldn’t be doing any baby sitting.
I was on state benefits, so had no real income.
It would have been easy to say that I wasn’t ready, that I wasn’t finically stable and to have terminated, No-one could have argued really. But I decided to keep him, tbh it was never in my mind not to.
So I managed, in the 5 months I had left I did so much research into babies and childbirth I knew as much as my midwife.
I brought things second-hand and cleaned them.
I made do, and I don’t think I did a bad job.

Now I’m a very happy mum of 4. I have a loving and supportive partner, and we do ok financially (with 4 things are never gonna be great), and I’ve never looked back.
But then I always wanted kids, there are others who want a career instead. I not naïve enough to say because it worked nicely for me that it will for everyone.

I just think in a lot (not all) of cases babies are terminated because of the fear of the unknown, of not knowing how yr manage.
Addressing the issues that create such high abortion rates would be better than picketing outside clinics.

It’s a very difficult subject and I don’t feel there is a right or a wrong. There will always be those that misuse the right given to them and those that need the rights in place. There is never a one answer fits all situation.

 

[Ivy]

I think that abortion is perfectly acceptable. Life is only valuable after it achieves some degree of sentience, and fetuses are not at that stage.

If you disagree, then you should also consider it wrong to harm animals.

I would consider it wrong to destroy a sentient machine, as a comparison. In other words, I believe that it is sentience, and not life, that is valuable. Life alone is little more than a sophisticated, self-sustaining chemical process (think of bacteria). It's awareness, a sense of will, and processing that make it meaningful.

Note that I respect the intentions of those who disagree with me (preventing murder), I simply believe they are mistaken about the nature of fetuses.

At what point do you consider growing humans to achieve sentience? They're really not much different when they're on the outside than they are on the inside, at least for the last several weeks of gestation. Humans are born much less developed than even other primates, because of our giant heads and upright pelvises. Babies are said to have a "fourth trimester" outside the womb-- for the first three months after birth, they're pretty much outside fetuses. If fetuses lack your criteria for sentience then so do very young babies.

 

[Mempy]

Addressing the issues that create such high abortion rates would be better than picketing outside clinics.

Agreed. Good post.

 

[Athenian200]

At what point do you consider growing humans to achieve sentience? They're really not much different when they're on the outside than they are on the inside, at least for the last several weeks of gestation. Humans are born much less developed than even other primates, because of our giant heads and upright pelvises. Babies are said to have a "fourth trimester" outside the womb-- for the first three months after birth, they're pretty much outside fetuses. If fetuses lack your criteria for sentience then so do very young babies.

I think that after a certain level of brain development, it's wrong to harm them. But not before.

I'm not sure whether it's wrong to harm very young babies or not. (However, I think that parental instincts would result in people demanding legal protection against it, regardless of whether it has any rational basis) But I still maintain that life is not valuable without sentience.

 

[ByMySword]

I don't have a problem with abortions, but I don't think that these abortion clinics should be allowed to just do one for anybody.

I think the right is abused way too often as a type of "birth control", if you will. So my idea should be to regulate it more. I think those who should want an abortion must take it before a judge and get a license or something that allows them to have one.

I think that there are instances where an abortion is needed. Health-related issues, rape, etc. But getting an abortion just because they were too dumb to use birth control to me isn't an excuse. With what we know now, its inexcusable. I mean, let's face it, if they don't want the child, the mother can always put it up for adoption.

I'm not saying I believe that life starts at conception. But somewhere along the line, that baby becomes alive. Better to be safe than sorry, in my opinion.

In all honesty. its not an issue that I would consider arguing. I really could care less. But if I had to take a stance, this would be the one I would take.

 

[Retz]

The reason I'm Pro-Choice is because of the fact it isn't black and white! If the only choice was to have the child all you have done is restrict the rights of women purely based on beliefs a majority of them may not even hold.

I in no way shape or form want another persons values determining my decisions on what I can and can't do.

Why can't they just have the choice?

 

[Mort Belfry]

If every human being was killed before they were born, the world would be a fantastic place to live.

*leaves thread before full-blown misanthropy kicks in*

........maybe I should have taken a page from your book.