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  1. #71
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Whether it is actually more than that (i.e., whether it is representationally/correspondentially true) is beyond our capability to know, in the sense of being able to scientifically verify or falsify it.

    As such, I leave that question open.

    ...........................

    @bolded: the issue is that it is unfalsifiable, so this can never be determined in a conclusive scientific manner.
    Yes, and the very nature of unfalsifiability makes something unscientific and generally leaves it dead in the water.
    But science can approach some things that are important about astrology. We can use the scientific method to find that there's no meaningful correlation between a person's zodiac sign and personality traits. We can also grasp a sense of proportion about how trivially small any known force produced by these celestial bodies would be upon individual people. The concept of astrology requires one to conjecture a force that either contradicts or escapes extremely reliable principles of physics.

    I guess I'm saying that if I should be agnostic about astrology, I should also be agnostic about evolution and diluvial continental formation.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  2. #72

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    Pro-Astro: I was not saying you are a pro-Astro person. I was saying what Astrology is for is determined by them.

    I get what you're saying with everything else, but I think your stance is wrong because it ignores the important matter. If Astrology is not true, no one is going to care about it. It doesn't matter how neat and comprehensive a system it is, i.e. how great and unmatched a self-reflection-provoking tool it is; the current system of Astrology is set up to "tell you" you are a certain way, which in turn sparks self-reflection, but if it is a fact that Astro is untrue, the descriptions then are completely meaningless and random, and no one is going to desire to sit and read 1, 000, 000 personality characteristics or what-have-you just so they can decide if those 1, 000, 000 dimensions of personality (nice, mean? cold-hearted, selfless? intense, laid-back? enjoy peace, need action? etc.) are true for them or not.

    The way I've handled the question of Astro's validity is this: It is possible we just do not yet understand how it works, so I then go on to testing Astrologically out statistically.

    You are actually doing the first part of what I'm doing (considering it possible), but not trying to disprove or prove what you actually can falsify. Instead you are just going: "Well, it may be true or not, can't determine.... But here, this is what Astro says is true! (with the implication that there's actual relevance to the output by Astrology)"... no?

  3. #73
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    What is astrology's pragmatic use and value, Zarathustra?

  4. #74
    Let Go Of Your Team Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Yes, and the very nature of unfalsifiability makes something unscientific and generally leaves it dead in the water.
    I'm pretty sure that's not much more than a tautology.

    Plenty of people (and understandably so) do not consider things that are unfalsifiable or unscientific as "dead in the water".

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    But science can approach some things that are important about astrology. We can use the scientific method to find that there's no meaningful correlation between a person's zodiac sign and personality traits.
    You don't seem to have read the part when I dealt with this earlier in the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    We can also grasp a sense of proportion about how trivially small any known force produced by these celestial bodies would be upon individual people. The concept of astrology requires one to conjecture a force that either contradicts or escapes extremely reliable principles of physics.
    Nor did you apparently read the part when I dealt with this.

    Please read the thread.
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

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  5. #75
    Let Go Of Your Team Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    What is astrology's pragmatic use and value, Zarathustra?
    To gain insight into oneself, others, and possibly more.
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
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  6. #76
    Let Go Of Your Team Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crack View Post
    Pro-Astro: I was not saying you are a pro-Astro person. I was saying what Astrology is for is determined by them.

    I get what you're saying with everything else, but I think your stance is wrong because it ignores the important matter. If Astrology is not true, no one is going to care about it. It doesn't matter how neat and comprehensive a system it is, i.e. how great and unmatched a self-reflection-provoking tool it is; the current system of Astrology is set up to "tell you" you are a certain way, which in turn sparks self-reflection, but if it is a fact that Astro is untrue, the descriptions then are completely meaningless and random, and no one is going to desire to sit and read 1, 000, 000 personality characteristics or what-have-you just so they can decide if those 1, 000, 000 dimensions of personality (nice, mean? cold-hearted, selfless? intense, laid-back? enjoy peace, need action? etc.) are true for them or not.

    The way I've handled the question of Astro's validity is this: It is possible we just do not yet understand how it works, so I then go on to testing Astrologically out statistically.

    You are actually doing the first part of what I'm doing (considering it possible), but not trying to disprove or prove what you actually can falsify. Instead you are just going: "Well, it may be true or not, can't determine.... But here, this is what Astro says is true! (with the implication that there's actual relevance to the output by Astrology)"... no?
    I've got to go to yoga shortly, but I appreciate the thoughtful response.

    I'll get back to you later tonight.
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
    Debator


  7. #77
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    The only thing I can find that seemed relevant was the part about material paradigms and alternative paradigms. Is that what you meant?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #78
    Let Go Of Your Team Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The only thing I can find that seemed relevant was the part about material paradigms and alternative paradigms. Is that what you meant?
    On the second part, yes.

    On the first part, search "canvas".

    The first part was also thoroughly covered b/w me and Sim in the previous astrology thread, but CzeCze mangled it.
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
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  9. #79
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    To gain insight into oneself, others, and possibly more.
    Insight so unique that only astrology can provide it?

  10. #80
    Let Go Of Your Team Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Insight so unique that only astrology can provide it?
    Not necessarily, but astrology might be a particularly useful tool for figuring it out.

    And, if it seems to reflect something accurate, then, well, who knows.

    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
    Debator


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