What is Wisdom?

[Nicodemus]

[...] all the good arguments are in favor of a God.

Could you name two besides the first-cause one that you thought was irrefutable?

 

[Zangetshumody]

Could you name two besides the first-cause one that you thought was irrefutable?

Stating you are not convinced that the laws of reason and logic are applicable to reality in order to obviate the conclusion that God exists is not a serious refutation Nico. So I will count the cosmological argument, then there's the fine-tuning argument (or the teleological argument).

 

[Nicodemus]

Stating you are not convinced that the laws of reason and logic are applicable to reality in order to obviate the conclusion that God exists is not a serious refutation Nico.

There were many arguments against yours. The one you could not counter was this: Supposing there was a supernatural cause, why must it be a god and cannot be something else? You said anything but god would itself require a cause, even a supernatural big bang. But that does not make sense, because if a supernatural big bang requires a cause, then so does a god. You initially brought in the supernatural in order to escape the cause-and-effect problem. So if it makes sense for a god, it makes sense for anything supernatural.

So I will count the cosmological argument, then there's the fine-tuning argument (or the teleological argument).

That is not a good argument because we can explain its premises without invoking a god. There is no necessity to the conclusion.

 

[INTP]

Wisdom is understanding something from all relevant perspectives in order to deal with the thing that you understand

 

[Craft]

I despise these sorts of questions because they are always meant to be "open-ended"(which is another word for 'meaningless'), and I find that dishonest to the whole notion of seeking the truth, which is the origin of asking questions. The reality of the situation is that it's not a 'real' question. It's a "suggestion" to redirect thinking, a needless one since wisdom is far from undefined.

 

[Zangetshumody]

There were many arguments against yours. The one you could not counter was this: Supposing there was a supernatural cause, why must it be a god and cannot be something else? You said anything but god would itself require a cause, even a supernatural big bang. But that does not make sense, because if a supernatural big bang requires a cause, then so does a god. You initially brought in the supernatural in order to escape the cause-and-effect problem. So if it makes sense for a god, it makes sense for anything supernatural.


That is not a good argument because we can explain its premises without invoking a god. There is no necessity to the conclusion.

A supernatural big bang isn't really supernatural, because it isn't itself a cause, its simply a product (that is why I identify it as an effect); invoking a supernatural big bang simply amounts to table thumping that the universe just inexplicably popped into existence, it doesn't stand as an independent entity capable of being labeled supernatural. Invoking a God as the supernatural entity makes much more sense, as it can exist independently of this universe, and it can account for the creation of this universe, it is actually supernatural (independent of time and space as well as the other limitations of this universe). And so its much neater to call God supernatural, as its identifying the supernatural force of creation; whereas a supernatural big bang is simply table thumping with no explanation from where a force is being emitting.

The teleological argument is not a deductive argument, and so it only indicates what is most probable, and that it does.

 

[Nicodemus]

A supernatural big bang isn't really supernatural, because it isn't itself a cause, its simply a product (that is why I identify it as an effect); invoking a supernatural big bang simply amounts to table thumping that the universe just inexplicably popped into existence, it doesn't stand as an independent entity capable of being labeled supernatural. Invoking a God as the supernatural entity makes much more sense, as it can exist independently of this universe, and it can account for the creation of this universe, it is actually supernatural (independent of time and space as well as the other limitations of this universe). And so its much neater to call God supernatural, as its identifying the supernatural force of creation; whereas a supernatural big bang is simply table thumping with no explanation from where a force is being emitting.

It is not table thumping at all. The supernatural big bang is defined as existing independent of time and space as well as the other limitations of this universe without having been caused - because that is all your cosmological argument calls for. If you dislike the word, we could call it a supernatural snowflake.

The teleological argument is not a deductive argument, and so it only indicates what is most probable, and that it does.

It does for you. If it were a good argument, it should be harder to explain it away.

 

[Zangetshumody]

It is not table thumping at all. The supernatural big bang is defined as existing independent of time and space as well as the other limitations of this universe without having been caused - because that is all your cosmological argument calls for. If you dislike the word, we could call it a supernatural snowflake.


It does for you. If it were a good argument, it should be harder to explain it away.

The big-bang is the starting point in the process of creation, so obviously this is not something that can exist outside of the dimensions of time and space; then you say I can call it a snowflake,- if I do this I'm just unsure what it is you are describing by that name, is it the same entity? An entity that by its nature does not make sense outside the confines of a distinct delimited universe that begs the question of how it came it be, rather that simply being inexplicable... God gives the system a grounding, your supernatural assertion is empty of thought and so can't even be called capricious, it just really is inexplicable.

You didn't explain away the teleological argument, you fail to understand its form, which makes your assessment of it void.

 

[Spurgeon]

Wow. this is getting good.

Props to both Nicodemus and Zang for their admirable skill in argumentation, though I would definitely have to side with Zang on this particular topic.

Keep it going....

 

[Nicodemus]

The big-bang is the starting point in the process of creation, so obviously this is not something that can exist outside of the dimensions of time and space; then you say I can call it a snowflake,- if I do this I'm just unsure what it is you are describing by that name, is it the same entity? An entity that by its nature does not make sense outside the confines of a distinct delimited universe that begs the question of how it came it be, rather that simply being inexplicable... God gives the system a grounding, your supernatural assertion is empty of thought and so can't even be called capricious, it just really is inexplicable.

It makes no difference whether it is a supernatural big bang, snowflake, car or canary bird: they all satisfy the conditions that you claimed call for a god. So, in that sense, the term is empty; it is empty because the conditions do not require any specification as to what kind of being the first cause is; therefore it could be a snowflake just as well as a god. Your argument does not permit you to choose one over the other.

However, if you want to call it god, god must be defined as 'existing independent of time and space as well as the other limitations of this universe without having been caused' and nothing more: no will, no consciousness, no watching, loving, hating.

You didn't explain away the teleological argument, you fail to understand its form, which makes your assessment of it void.

Yes, I did not explain it away, because I know that you would simply discard the explanation as too secularistic. I do understand its form, though.

 

[Words of Ivory]

Wisdom is the capacity to know that you'll never have all the answers, the humility to understand that many of your existing answers may be wrong, the unshakeable willingness to learn and grow from the experiences of others, and the capacity to act on that knowledge in a meaningful way.

Wisdom is defined by yourself.

Knowledge and wisdom are not the same thing.

It'a easy to know something. The hard part is using that knowledge justly.

Refuting people's beliefs in a harsh and spiteful manner purely because they contradict your own, no matter the contradictions, is not a display of wisdom. That is light dash of logic, mixed with a heavy sprinkling of ego.

Wisdom in this situation would be to understand that some people are simply not capable of seeing beyond their tunnel-visioned view of the world, and leaving them to their own ignorance, as trying to convince them to believe differently is something you know to be an ultimately futile effort.

Learning from experience, and all that.

 

[Not_Me]

Job 28:28 “And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the LORD, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.”

Not_Me 7:15 "I am wisdom itself, for I speaketh the truth"

 

[freeeekyyy]

Wisdom, in the general sense (all types) is simply applied knowledge; could be intellectual knowledge, spiritual knowledge, psychological knowledge, any type of knowledge.

 

[LightSun]

“I believe in a duality. I can see how love can be perceived to solve all the world’s problems. How we should love one another and give of our hearts. We are interrelated but also a self-serving species. Wisdom has to come into the fray. Wisdom and the very mighty reasoning that lies within our brains have to come into the fray to achieve balance.

I have witnessed one or certain people who speak truths as it appears from a veritable well of wisdom. It is an observation of an extraordinary human being. If the mind is cleansed one is able to see reality more clearly and fully. One is able to connect to God which is the universe and be more fully a part of it. Heaven and hell are right before us & our eyes. Cleanse your mind and see the glory of God and all of God's creation called nature.

Wisdom and the very mighty reasoning that lies within our brains have to come into the fray to achieve balance. I absolutely follow a fundamental in understanding that aligns with certain truths. ‎A truth resonates with a truth. I believe (Truth) it is encoded into the DNA, the fundamental truth of reality for a purpose in helping the species survive.

A job is sorting misconceptions and fulfilling the gift we have in betterment for humanity. Within lays the truth. It is a matter of listening to this inner guide, and ignoring the distractions of life. The Christians would call this the "holy ghost". Carl Jung would say to tap into the super unconscious, in which all the wisdom of humanity lays, new age people say to trust the universe.

I do not know how or why this reservoir of knowledge & intuition exists. None the less it does. Perhaps it is the rational brain whispering to us and trying to save us from doing things that we will inevitably regret. When we heed our "primitive" brain and act without thinking we ignore this reservoir of greatness.

The view of the human person who is wise consistently changes from say 18, 25, early thirties and beyond. I say I will learn until my last dying breathes. Provided I am cognizant of course. It is a journey. We continually grow and expand.

I viewed the world differently. It has been a hardship. It has been an illuminating experience. Two sides of the same coin. Both are one and part of the other. I seek people like you who can understand what I see. Just what I see is so clear; I must use metaphors, and other tricks for other people to see partly what I see.

I seek to learn something about myself. In addition, I seek to understand human behavior human behavior, so that the world makes a little more sense. Change is hard; we need to work upon our self in order enacting real paradigm change in our society. Even wanting to change and become a better person, does not necessitate an actual occurrence of the desired change will occur. For we seem to fight ourselves. It is a phenomenon.

There is that written inside of us that is as of the universal consciousness. It seems to be written in our DNA, our consciousness, our very hearts, minds, and souls. That is one thing we have going for us. The belief that there is universal good and if we could just but see it.

We as a species resist change for it is both painful as well very difficult. So the reformer has the vision of a brand spanking wonderful future, but will be resisted. We as individuals seek to maintain order, clarity, and consistency with in our lives. To go against status quo is profoundly resisted. We also largely live in a moment by the minute sort of basis.

This is to mean we react vs. plan for contingencies. Of course reading psychological profiles, there are some types who consistently perform rather well with a solution focused and a more future oriented base. Nonetheless we happen to be guided very much by emotion, in a sort of pain-pleasure paradigm. We seek avoiding any pain (change), while seeking gratification with worldly pleasures. Many are of an illusion type. When we die are all hours spending on immediate gratification such like sex, clothes, money, possessions, food - will or can it avail us (I mean in excess)?

I according with Maslow and also Csikszentmihaly go with a "flow" and or seeking "peak experiences," as my optimal level of seeking a "true" life experience. Or call itself actualizing potential as well as in developing my latent gifts more fulfilling than illusionary distraction s in this world. It is as if we as children have been molded into a shape. To change we have to figuratively metamorphosis into a new person. If it is hard for you to "change", then how can you "realistically" & rationally believe that you can "change" another human "being"? Knowing this truth could prevent so much misery. People are always seeing to change others rather than look within.

It is extremely difficult to change, even if one wants to. It is almost impossible to change another human being. The "changes" have to come from within. What one can do is: State your boundaries. State your feelings. State your position and wants, wishes, & expectations etc. Do not seek to control the other. This is negative energy. It will come back your way if you seek to impose your "will" upon another human being.

If a person is on a dissimilar journey then they have lessons to learn which are different from yours. We should be cognizant of this and not judge. For he / she who judges, only fools self which is a tragedy. Why is it a tragedy? We are so blind searching for the light and when we judge we only lengthen our journey.

Wisdom without action is not wisdom, but empty words. In general I have learned that you can't have a conservative and liberal argue and for there to be a shift in consciousness. It goes out in one ear and out the other. I have changed my mind through life experiences with an evolution of thought, and a coming into my own. I am beginning to see multiple viewpoints and understand their different languages of thought and perceptual reality.

Change is difficult and painful. In fact I would not say change so much as grow. It almost seems that we have different animal spirits: bear, puma, raccoon and so on. It helps define us. We don't so much change as evolve and grow constantly throughout our life.

The mightiest enemy to conquer is self. For since, birth we have been deceived with at best half-truths. It takes a lifetime to disentangle oneself from the net of lies and illusions. In addition, it takes a willing heart; the battle still may not be won. Nevertheless, we must try that or continue being caught, ensnarled, and entangled by the net. For myself I wish to be a free man. Free of illusion and distortion.

I greatly appreciate the efforts of people as well needful feedback whose precision in thought and reason has helped me refine a point on how I say things. Conversely, what the other person says is either right or wrong. A key is reason versus negativity. I have already stated that a negative, angry, blaming approach is distorted.

Still I am on a path. I try to learn from someone more enlightened than myself. But, if I am further on the path, I still can learn from others who may not be so far on the path. This is why, with an angry individual I still strive to find some truth in their statement.

I will then dialogue with that person. We will communicate on that element of truth or reason. Thus dialogues, communication, possibly respect and even friendship can be established. Hopefully, the other can learn from me & so I help a brother or sister on the path.
We have to experience deep rooted pain. For with a change, indeed all changes there are a risk of enduring a pain. We instinctively avoid this pain, even when it is in our best interests.

Until somehow we can override this fear complex chemically or by some other terrific means we will be enclosed in a prison of our own making, and that is what the mind is willing to endure, and what it is not.
Without challenges we cannot grow as effectively. It is our interpersonal relationships which are true tests of our character, will power & poise. If we react negatively we are immature. Moreover we are angry. Still deeper is deep hurt.

We are incomplete and so fight the world. The challenge is to deal with life's challenges with more decorum, but it hurts, or is not fair. The true battle lies within. The more rational a person is the less distorted they are, and hopefully more balanced as well as happy.
Knowledge of self is one of the greatest powers a person may possess. Few take this journey. Few know how. There are no road maps or signs to really tell a person what to do. Each must decipher it for himself/herself. For the price of this wisdom is priceless. It is invaluable to the human spirit.

I have been told I have a gift in insight, both in myself and of others hidden motives. It is a wonderful gift, but it does not change the world, but passion surely has a capacity to do so. This is to say affect changes and make a profound difference of our lives.
It is a process of a seemingly paradigm shift, changing the consciousness that we can behold. We will then have a possibility of seeing reality with fresh eyes and a purer mind & consciousness.

There is an inner light in all of us. We must find it to be free and peaceful and fulfilled in this lifetime. It is a worthy journey of self-discovery as well inner discovery. Treasure the friend who can help you in this most miraculous of journeys. We all have a little devil in us. Another analogy I use is that there is an angel on a shoulder whispering. There is also a devil on the other shoulder hollering. One who finds inner peace can begin to listen to the angel. Part of healing is learning to heed the whisper which all of us have the capacity to do so.

To not think and reflect is to die of stagnation. If we are lucky, we receive truths both about ourselves as well as about the universe we happen to live in by the gifts of insight. It is built in invention where with intuition we do make a leap as well the paradigm shift of consciousness and indeed some new total fundamental awareness with the nature we do call our world-that is reality. I call them mental plateaus. That is one level of reasoning to another. Sometimes we need a ladder to the next level.

Ignorance, ‘words tend to go in one ear and out the other’. Can we learn to listen? Can we learn to reflect? Can we learn to not attack, but build bridges instead? Can we learn to work with each other vs. against? All if these skills should be taught in the school systems and parenting classes for society to move forward.

Wisdom is applying the "knowledge" we have learned from "seeing” patterns. These intuitive, sensing, seeing of patterns in the knowledge is wisdom. Some of us seem to possess and almost 6th / "sixth" sense. It could be construed to be tapping into Carl Jung's super unconscious.

From here comes wisdom as well. It's like tapping into a well. INFP's in Please Understand Me by David Keirsey and Marilyn Bates are Apollonian. That is we are in a sense oracles. (It does not mean that everything we say is understandable currently or that it is entirely correct) It is a start.

Too many times we get caught up in our comfort zones. It's so easy to sleep as a caterpillar, but if we fear the transformation into butterfly, we will never know the glorious sense of flight or reach our true potential.

Think of child-birth. It is painful, but brings a bountiful of opportunities. We must shed our snake skin of blindness in order to see.” LightSun

 

[Synapse]

Wisdom is knowing how to deprogram the programming created from birth to 7, then reinforced the next 7 years, then reinforced further the next 7 that sets up and mirrors the rest of your life, its a triple thing.

 

[Mole]

I don't think you can be a very good philosopher, all the good arguments are in favor of a God. For no doubt there is a prime mover of some kind.

Recent accurate measurements of the background radiation of the universe show that the universe is flat, that is, the sum total of all the energy and mass in the universe is zero.

So the universe has no need of a prime mover.

 

[Mole]

Wisdom is knowing how to deprogram the programming created from birth to 7, then reinforced the next 7 years, then reinforced further the next 7 that sets up and mirrors the rest of your life, its a triple thing.

Yes, it is learning to understand what we take for granted.

 

[Zangetshumody]

Recent accurate measurements of the background radiation of the universe show that the universe is flat, that is, the sum total of all the energy and mass in the universe is zero.

So the universe has no need of a prime mover.

Just because a state has a certain equilibrium about it doesn't forgo the necessity of a genesis, or how that certain state of equilibrium came into being. Its like your talking about a tray that's evenly balanced, so it doesn't topple over. This balanced tray however, is still a finite something, it doesn't not exist, it just happens to be balanced.

 

[Nicodemus]

Props to both Nicodemus and Zang for their admirable skill in argumentation, though I would definitely have to side with Zang on this particular topic.

It seems Zang has stopped to defend his position - for the second time. Since you sided with him, would you care to take over?

 

[Glycerine]

Being able to apply one's knowledge, skills, talents, and experience in a meaningful way that's optimal for the individual. And of course, "meaningful" is subjective....