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Real absolute and objective evil?

Lark

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Do you believe that there is a real, absolute and obejctive evil in existence or is it just all a projection of peoples worst or wickednest traits by themselves onto an "other"?

Jung said both of these things, without considering there to be a seeming contradiction. Some how I think he is right, that it could be both but I'm not sure how I resolve the seeming contradiction.
 

Qlip

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Well, there is the school of thought that says that evil is what evil does, but I don't really buy that. All acts of evil proceed from very natural and good impulses, usually in an incorrect or inappropriate manner. What makes it evil, is like you mentioned, we don't wish to identify with it and push it off to 'other'.

Maybe the closest thing to true evil is impersonal, things like disease and natural disaster. Those things are true 'other'.
 

KDude

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The two most destructive forces in the universe are black holes and supernovae. They can obliterate anything around them spanning light years in distance. If it's possible that life outside earth exists, then it's entirely possible that either of these two forces killed billions or trillions of small school children in an instant. And yet.. there's nothing evil about them. As far as we know. It's the highest form of senseless disregard for life, and yet.. objectively speaking, it's natural. In fact, it's beneficial to have them around. What does that say about lesser destructive forces? I don't have the answer myself. It just makes me wonder why I should draw certain distinctions at times. Half of the stuff we'd consider evil is pointless in the grand scheme of things.
 

Totenkindly

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... It just makes me wonder why I should draw certain distinctions at times. Half of the stuff we'd consider evil is pointless in the grand scheme of things.

"Evil" is based on values, which means it needs someone to hold and define the value before it can be defined as "good" or "evil." It's typically also personal in that it's experienced on a personal level, not an impersonal one.

Any criteria we would select as defining "evil" is based on one's own personal sense of what needs to be prioritized. Are we saying that "majority rules" in what sort of things should be considered to be truly "evil"? If enough people think it's evil, is it evil?

We can try to detach it from human values by looking at the outcome of the particular action... but since at that point the action can be described clinically, is there any value to labeling it "good" or "evil"?
 

tinker683

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I suppose it depends on how you define evil.

Probably the best definition I've heard is that evil is "the absence of empathy". Since biological organisms seem to be the only ones concerned with things like hatred, cruelty, jealously, and things of that nature, I'd have to say "evil" is subjective to the person or group of persons making the call.

I doubt very much any asteroid that may hit our planet would be concerned as to the civilizations, people, and cultural history it's about to wipe out.
 

Magic Poriferan

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The only bad is a negative experience. Pain and sorrow, or the absence of pleasure and joy. That sort of thing.

The ability to determine if something is bad is related only to the ability to quantify those positive and negative experiences and how something relates to them.

I suspect my morality cannot then have evil, because I take evil to be something 100% and intrinsically bad. There
 

Tiger Owl

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There is and I have seen it.
 

KDude

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Any criteria we would select as defining "evil" is based on one's own personal sense of what needs to be prioritized. Are we saying that "majority rules" in what sort of things should be considered to be truly "evil"? If enough people think it's evil, is it evil?

I have personal values, but yeah.. I'm not sure what they're really worth, "objectively" speaking.

And majority rules is not a good measure. Considering how long civilization has been around, look how long it's taken to even protest against slavery. The majority is only waking up now. Kind of.
 

Tiger Owl

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I like quirky (as long as it is logical).
 

erm

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I suppose it depends on how you define evil.

Pretty much.

It's one of those terms where there's a lot of meanings, so it needs to be openly-defined for coherent discussion to take place. Otherwise some people define it as being subjective, some as being objective, some as relative, yet many will act like they are talking about the same thing, because the label is the same.

So yeah, some definitions of evil are objective and some are subjective or relative.
 

Nicodemus

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Pretty much.

It's one of those terms where there's a lot of meanings, so it needs to be openly-defined for coherent discussion to take place. Otherwise some people define it as being subjective, some as being objective, some as relative and yet act like they are talking about the same thing.

So yeah, some definitions of evil are objective and some are subjective or relative.
Lark's question was quite clear about that, though: "Do you believe that there is a real, absolute and obejctive evil in existence [...]?"
 

erm

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Lark's question was quite clear about that, though: "Do you believe that there is a real, absolute and obejctive evil in existence [...]?"

That's not clear at all. There's no definition of "evil" provided.
 

Tiger Owl

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Pretty much.

It's one of those terms where there's a lot of meanings, so it needs to be openly-defined for coherent discussion to take place. Otherwise some people define it as being subjective, some as being objective, some as relative and such yet act like they are talking about the same thing.

Perhaps they are all partly correct. Evil is the antithesis of good, of righteousness, of love, and all the synonyms of the same. If one talks about evil in subjective, objective, philosophical, socio-religious, esoteric or experiential terms they are but describing characteristics of that which is evil. By looking at all the facets, all the perspectives that we can observe a more complete picture of evil and realize it for what it is.
 

Qlip

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I really do think that any meaning of 'evil' has the characteristic of 'otherness'. Of something you can't identify with, you can't believe a human could do. It's a dehumnizing term, technically.
 

erm

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I really do think that any meaning of 'evil' has the characteristic of 'otherness'. Of something you can't identify with, you can't believe a human could do. It's a dehumnizing term, technically.

I've heard so many where it refers to something the speaker is aware that they themselves do. So they will say something like "all humans are evil", and the actual meaning of their phrase is something like "all humans are self-serving". There are definitions where evil is what the speaker wants or strives for.

One of the more common meanings is something the speaker is repelled by. Often the definition is referring to whatever they are actually repelled by, so it takes on an objective meaning (e.g. killing or suffering). Some people will define evil as the repulsion itself though, and thus conclude that evil is subjective (or objective if they refer to the repulsion as its own object).

I'm not sure why terms end up like this. Perhaps it helps unite people, as they use the same term yet fail to realise they aren't using the same meaning, causing larger groups work together and be more effective at various tasks. That is just wild armchair speculation though, and I wouldn't put any weight on it.
 

Nicodemus

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That's not clear at all. There's no definition of "evil" provided.
The whole thread hinges on the undefinedness of the term, which, though certainly fuzzy, has some core idea to it that most people share. Perhaps we agree more on what 'happiness' means than on what 'evil' is, but it is enough to work with - especially considering the importance of the work.

However, your initial fear was that "some people define it as being subjective, some as being objective, some as relative". That, at least, should be preventable by reading the opening post.
 

Spurgeon

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Evil is anything that opposes God.

Interestingly, God permits evil to exist, which seems like a contradiction but is not, if you know that God always uses evil for good.

But that's getting into some deep theological waters which may be beyond the scope of this thread.
 

Lark

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Well, there is the school of thought that says that evil is what evil does, but I don't really buy that. All acts of evil proceed from very natural and good impulses, usually in an incorrect or inappropriate manner. What makes it evil, is like you mentioned, we don't wish to identify with it and push it off to 'other'.

Maybe the closest thing to true evil is impersonal, things like disease and natural disaster. Those things are true 'other'.

Well Fromm, who rejected Jung's thesis of an objective, external evil along with a lot of other ideas as closet theism, suggested that when natural growth and development or impulses where blocked, when good was impossible, the same drives got channelled in an evil way. For instance a sado-masochist is someone whose basic drive for love and relating has been corrupted into coercing and controlling. He had two basic orientations towards existence in his final theory, bio-philis, life orientated, or necro-philis, death orientated, his theory uses the word necrophilis in a different way to it had been previously, its not simply eroticising the dead, so you could prefer objects to people or animals or only prefer people and animals if you can render them into objects, prefering having to being, joy to possessiveness. Sorry, I digress. Anyway, he meant that evil is only human in its origins and abnormal.

While I like Fromm's theories, I still kind of think that Jung's theory of an objective evil makes sense, evil isnt just the abscence of good, that's a little inert and at times evil is really, really proactive and unmistakeable. I cant dismiss the idea of objective external good or evil, as natural forces, like gravitation, as superstition just yet.
 
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