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The Varieties of Truth

Zangetshumody

Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
458
MBTI Type
INTJ
I hope there is no objective truth, not so that we are free to flounder, but so that we are free to grow. unleashed.
 
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R

ReflecTcelfeR

Guest
This was surprisingly easy for me. My conscience knows when I have made the incorrect decision wherein guilt beseeches me to rectify the wrong.
 

strychnine

All Natural! All Good!
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
895
I think there are two types of truth... (1) a useful or "gets things done" pseudo-truth and (2) a more abstract real truth.

I think a proposition is true by (1) if there is considerable empirical evidence in its favour: several studies pointing to the proposition's truth at 95% confidence for example. This truth only matters if you have to function in reality. I choose to do certain things, eat certain foods, etc. based on scientific literature. For me, this doesn't matter in the realm of "pure" truth, only useful "truth". Which I don't think is really truth.

To me, real truth is (2), abstract truth. This would have to account for scenarios like being in a simulation, being a brain in a vat, etc. It would have to be completely internal and not dependent on the environment. Perhaps math or logic count for this, but I'm not sure.

Thinking back to that circle thread... We know what a perfect circle is despite not having seen one in our environment. Perhaps the concept of a perfect circle is an example of abstract truth.

Maybe (1) becomes real truth if we know we are not brains in vats, dreaming, etc.

(I read some other posts just now and it looks like this has already been said. heh)
 

Little_Sticks

New member
Joined
Aug 19, 2009
Messages
1,358
I think for me all truth really boils down to "whatever works". And the things that I find not to work so well become more doubtful and more questioned and something I would feel hypocritical for relying on.

When I learn something that I can rely on like certain engineering sciences, I take them for granted as truth. But when I learn about philosophy or how people rationalize others and situations, I see relative and changing motivations that can't be relied upon as truth (and it usually seems to take the form of hypocrisy in myself and everyone else).

This is more of a behavioral aspect, I find. We stick with, have faith in, and see as truth those things that remain constant and rebel against the things that don't. And what doesn't remain constant might really be synonymous with 'what we deem fair or not'.

This makes some religions extremely dangerous in this regard because the blind faith of the religion is the constant. There can be no reason, compromise, or alternative to an absolute truth - only conflict; and some people feel they need to have such a constant for their lives to hold meaning. Scary. 0.o
 

Sanctus Iacobus

New member
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
Messages
286
MBTI Type
STP
[*]Look into yourself.
[*]Feel, think about, grasp at the idea of truth that you find in there.
[*]Ponder the best way to put it into words.
[*]Put it into words.
[*]Submit it.[/list]


My "truth" goes something like this...

I look into myself, and I see someone who wants to lie. But he is not good enough at lying to lie to himself, so I know there is no truth there.

Therefore, I look into myself for truth and find no truth greater than the the "truth" that varies as much as people do.

Since I find no truth in people, I look to the basics of life. I look for the most basic things there are. And what I find is things like this... 1+1=2, true. 1+1=anything but 2, false.

From these most basic of things it becomes clear that truth is itself also the most simple thing. It is not a matter of opinion, nor can there be different versions of it, one for each person's opinion as we so wish to believe.


...and we wish to believe, because deep down inside, we know... there is a basic truth about all of us that we cannot escape: that we all exist, and together, a simple fact like 1+1=2, and yet we all have our own version of what we say is true, our own version of 1+1.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Integrity and Joy

Welcome!

The purpose of this thread is to survey the various conceptions of truth that are ingrained in your minds. In order to participate and win a rabbit, please go by the following steps:

  1. Look into yourself.
  2. Feel, think about, grasp at the idea of truth that you find in there.
  3. Ponder the best way to put it into words.
  4. Put it into words.
  5. Submit it.
It is neither necessary nor requested that you think about how truth should be, could be, or is defined by others. It is all about you.

I hope your answer will in itself answer the following question; if it does not, however, please answer: According to your conception of truth, what is required for statement 'x'* to be true?

* 'x' could be anything, for instance, 'Yeshua of Nazareth died on the cross'.

What is true for me are certain things I don't understand. I don't understand why integrity is so over-ridingly important for me. I can't understand why I almost make a fetish of intellectual integrity. I don't understand why integrity is a real thing for me.

Of course I can see that compromise is useful, even necessary in the world, but my heart isn't in it.

I think that the answer, in the rag and bone yard of my heart, is that integrity brings me joy.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
What is true for me are certain things I don't understand. I don't understand why integrity is so over-ridingly important for me. I can't understand why I almost make a fetish of intellectual integrity. I don't understand why integrity is a real thing for me.

Of course I can see that compromise is useful, even necessary in the world, but my heart isn't in it.

I think that the answer, in the rag and bone yard of my heart, is that integrity brings me joy.

Fi
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

I'm going to throw this comment out there: Nobody really cares about Universal Truth.

The civilized world cares about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
The concept behind those two letters is extremely rich and complex.

In line with the topic by Nicodemus, it seems we have two truths here - your idea of rich and complex and my idea of rich and complex.

I see MBTI as narrow and impoverished, designed to reduce living persons to types so we can be categorised and manipulated for the benefit of those in power.
 

Salomé

meh
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
10,527
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all.
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'

Beyond earth, you need the standard model. (Which is so fugly it can't possibly be true.)
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
I see MBTI as narrow and impoverished, designed to reduce living persons to types so we can be categorised and manipulated for the benefit of those in power.

And that's why I said Fi and not Ti.

You don't actually value intellectual integrity.

You value integrity to your own subjective value judgments.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

It is who you are.

An Fi-dom.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Is that right?

And that's why I said Fi and not Ti.

You don't actually value intellectual integrity.

You value integrity to your own subjective value judgments.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

It is who you are.

An Fi-dom.

Let me see, have I got this right?

You are telling me who I am based on an invalid and unreliable personality test, that I have never seen, let alone done.

Is that right?
 

Santosha

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2011
Messages
1,516
MBTI Type
HUMR
Enneagram
6
Instinctual Variant
sx
There is no truth, only perception. There is only belief held by the majority and minority. If the majority holds it, its objective. If the minority holds it, its subjective. But yet, this still seems false. I can look at a couch and attribute 100,000 charactoristics (also defined by the majority) but do I now know the truth of the couch? NO! Becaue I am not the couch. Only the couch knows the couch. Subject-object divide.

The closest you can get to this "truth" you speak of is by understanding everything an object was, everything it is, and everything it will be. Do this as objectively as possible in your subjective lens, and it might get close. And it might not.

What the fuck is the point?

I'm drunk and my vision fails.

Edit: If absolute truth exists, the limitation of words could never reach it.
 
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