The Varieties of Truth

[Zarathustra]

My last taboo was piety. And so I am inclined to revel in my impiety.

So I am impius towards MBTI and naturally towards faith.

I do understand my impiety is a scandal for the pius. And that breaking the last taboo disconcerts believers and perhaps even caused disgust and anger.

But I love my freedom from piety - I can dance where I like - an impius imp, free, free at last.

Depending on your definition of pious, I am either pious and can still dance where I like, or I am impious and can do the same.

Either way, I do not see why piety and dancing where you like must be at odds.

Regardless, I thank you for the openness and candidness.

 

[Mole]

Depending on your definition of pious, I am either pious and can still dance where I like, or I am impious and can do the same.

Either way, I do not see why piety and dancing where you like must be at odds.

Well, to create I need only one condition - I need to be free.

I need to be physically free - I need my health and an income.

And I need to be psychologically free - I need to be free from my cultural imperatives and taboos.

Cultural imperatives and taboos are difficult to free ourselves from because they are largely invisible and also unconsciously shared by those around us.

 

[Mole]

Ecstasy and Understanding

Regardless, I thank you for the openness and candidness.

Your culture makes the distinction between phoney and genuine, or beween phoney and open and candid, while my culture makes the same distinction between boring and amusing.

So for us to understand one another we need to transcend the cultural distinctions which are invisible to us and which we take for granted.

And always remembering that ecstasy is stepping outside the taken for granted.

And that ecstasy leads to understanding.

 

[Spurgeon]

That's right if we were talking about the definition of truth from the dictionary, silly. Nicodemus was asking about our personal conceptions of truth, which is our connotation of the word 'truth'.

I was answering the part about what is required for X to be true.

 

[Spurgeon]

In any case, "varieties of truth" do not exist--except as mental constructs.

In reality, there is only truth and falsehood.

 

[wolfy]

In any case, "varieties of truth" do not exist--except as mental constructs.

In reality, there is only truth and falsehood.

That's a mental construct in itself. The act of looking at something changes it.

 

[Spurgeon]

That's a mental construct in itself. The act of looking at something changes it.

I disagree.

But even if it is a mental construct, either it accurately reflects reality or it doesn't.

If it does, then it's true. If it doesn't, it's false.

My point is that the human mind can conceive of varieties of truth, but in reality there are no varieties of truth. There is only truth and falsehood.

 

[Sniffles]

Kierkegaard was an existentialist, not a Christian.

What?

 

[wolfy]

I disagree.

But even if it is a mental construct, either it accurately reflects reality or it doesn't.

If it does, then it's true. If it doesn't, it's false.

My point is that there are no varieties of truth. There is only truth and falsehood.

It is all a mental construct. How can it not be? Falsehood... give me an example.

 

[Zarathustra]

In any case, "varieties of truth" do not exist--except as mental constructs.

In reality, there is only truth and falsehood.

Should the United States have gone into Afghanistan? How about Iraq?

Was the $775B original stimulus package worth it? Should it have been larger, should it have been smaller, or was it just right?

Should Congress pass Obama's $450B jobs bill? Would it be effective? Or would other options be better at stimulating job growth?

Please, show me the single, unalterable truth for each of these questions.

 

[Sniffles]

Zarathustra:
Tell me your definition of existentialism, and I will tell you how it conflicts with Biblical Christianity.

How does the concept of existence preceding essence contradict Christianity? I mean St. Thomas Aquinas proposed the same idea back in the 13th century, and Existentialism(particularly Kierkegaard's version) also seems to draw on many themes related to the Augustinian priniciple of Interiority:

Interiority holds that truth may be found through a self-exploration of the inner life of an individual person.Interiority refers to the interior life, a particular lived reality of a spiritual tradition. It is a spiritual withdrawing inwards in order to come to a better knowledge of both oneself and God. This is our "resting in God." As the opening paragraph of the Confessions of Augustine acknowledges, "because You have made us for yourself, and our hearts find no peace until they rest in you." (Confessions, I,I.) Only in God is found the final happiness of any person....

http://www.friendsofaugustine.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=67&Itemid=89

And Jewish Existentialists like Martin Buber and Lev Shestov didn't seem to have trouble drawing upon the Bible for inspiration for their religious-based Existentialism.

Do explain.

 

[Zarathustra]

Peguy.

No homo.

(Wouldn't want you going to hell or anything.)

 

[Spurgeon]

What?

Yeah, I don't think his philosophy is consistent with Biblical Christianity. Way too much emphasis on the individual and on subjectivity.
And as far as I can tell, he never actually took the leap of faith. He remained in doubt.

 

[Sniffles]

Yeah, I don't think his philosophy is consistent with Biblical Christianity. Way too much emphasis on the individual and on subjectivity.

Well he was operating from a Lutheran perspective, which emphasizes private faith(and Luther was a great admirer of St. Auguastine - with the principle of Interiority I just showed above). Also keep in mind he was also reacting to Hegel's philosophy, which tended to subordinate individuality to abstractions.

And as far as I can tell, he never actually took the leap of faith. He remained in doubt.

Can you explain this further? By most accounts, he took his religious faith very very very seriously.

 

[KDude]

Yeah, I don't think his philosophy is consistent with Biblical Christianity. Way too much emphasis on the individual and on subjectivity.
And as far as I can tell, he never actually took the leap of faith. He remained in doubt.

Yet, as I said, you've never explained what biblical Christianity even is. You keep pointing to it, but apparently, your wife and kids are more important than doing much more than that. Not a bad thing though

 

[Zarathustra]

I'm assuming this could tell us most of what we need to know...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Spurgeon

 

[KDude]

I'm assuming this could tell us most of what we need to know...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Spurgeon

I know who Charles Spurgeon is, but he's a Baptist. It's up to debate that he has the final say on what's biblical.

Unless Spurgeon is actually God. He does kind of have an epic beard, doesn't he?

 

[A window to the soul]

In any case, "varieties of truth" do not exist--except as mental constructs.

In reality, there is only truth and falsehood.

I don't disagree, but I think you're still missing the point. In reality, it's not always that simple to determine what is true or false. We don't know all of the truths about the universe, correct? Even the Bible indicates we do not have all of the answers. In Physics, there are some cases where we can only conceptualize that which is likely true, but we have no way of physically proving it.

Christianity is no different. You can prove Jesus existed, but how do you prove he's the son of God? How do you prove the Holy Spirit? How do you prove salvation? How do you move past the conceptualization stage to prove something is true? It's not always possible. And when faith is all you've got, how did you get there?

Because truth is actualized, right? And *You* can describe that which is true, which was actualized in *you* after you received the Holy Spirit. You might describe a miraculous change you had overnight or an incredible feeling like being in love when you felt God's spirit poured into you. It's tangible to you because you feel it and it confirms concepts *you* read in the Bible, *but* what about the people that haven't experienced God? People that have head knowledge (or faith in concepts that may or may not be true), but do not have the heart knowledge (of God) or experience to say for certain.

If someone doesn't experience God in a tangible way, what do you say then? I think that's what this thread is all about; our varieties of truth that don't fit the *worldly* definition of truth. According to your statement (above), I'm going to throw this question at ya in hopes you'll humor me and answer...

If God's existence is X and X is true, and truth is actualized, then what specifically did you see (or experience)?

 

[Zarathustra]

I know who Charles Spurgeon is, but he's a Baptist. It's up to debate that he has the final say on what's biblical.

I'm just saying it would seem to be the most likely source of our friend Spurgeon's "truth".

Unless Spurgeon is actually God. He does kind of have an epic beard, doesn't he?

 

[Spurgeon]

Yet, as I said, you've never explained what biblical Christianity even is. You keep pointing to it, but apparently, your wife and kids are more important than doing much more than that. Not a bad thing though

OK. Since you asked, I will tell you.

Biblical Christianity can be summed up like this:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
And this is the judgement: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." --John 3:16-21