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Would You Die For A Cause?

Elfboy

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I believe that they believe they are serving humanity
You're missing the point though
The government IS people

the government is supposed to be these things, but when it transforms into a gigantic, complex bureaucratic mess, it becomes the opposite.
 

Lark

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interesting, you seem to be interested in the abuse of power. may I ask what in a socialist society would prevent governmental abuse of power when they are able to amass such large amounts of money?

:bye:
 

Beargryllz

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the government is supposed to be these things, but when it transforms into a gigantic, complex bureaucratic mess, it becomes the opposite.

So clean the mess

You are probably old enough to vote, and if you aren't you will be someday.

If there is something the government is doing that you do not agree with

1. There is a reason that the government is doing what it is doing, and it could be a good reason or a silly mistake, an outdated law, for example
2. You have a duty, as a citizen, to address this oversight or make your grievance known
 

Elfboy

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So clean the mess

You are probably old enough to vote, and if you aren't you will be someday.

If there is something the government is doing that you do not agree with

1. There is a reason that the government is doing what it is doing, and it could be a good reason or a silly mistake, an outdated law, for example
2. You have a duty, as a citizen, to address this oversight or make your grievance known

- I am old enough to vote, but I'm afraid it's just more complicated than that
- I don't have a duty to do anything except look after myself and anyone else I wish to

this ties in nicely with the main topic though. it all has to do with whether you feel a sense of duty, how strong is that sense of duty, what is that sense of duty directed towards and would you ever value a cause more than your own life?
 

Beargryllz

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- I am old enough to vote, but I'm afraid it's just more complicated than that
- I don't have a duty to do anything except look after myself and anyone else I wish to

this ties in nicely with the main topic though. it all has to do with whether you feel a sense of duty, how strong is that sense of duty, what is that sense of duty directed towards and would you ever value a cause more than your own life?

If you don't participate in a society, do not expect that society to cherish you as a participant

Your duty is to complain
 

Lark

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Whether or not you're old enough to vote you're old enough to read and discover that socialism is not synomynous with government, it is not synomynous with bureaucracy or abuse of power either, in fact socialists have written at very considerable length about that, although you wont know that if you've only heard about socialism second hand via those writers who use socialists or socialism as a tag for everything they hate.

Not to name drop but you could do worse than reading Eric Fromm, if you can get a copy of May Man Prevail, his book about the Cold War and Russian and Chinese communism in contrast to western democratic socialism, you'll be well on your way to finding out the truth of the matter.

If you'd like to read about how socialists shouldnt support the welfare state then you could read either Irving Howe's book about that or his anthology of socialist writers which contains GDH Cole's essay on the topic (you'll not get the GDH Cole book, its a rare pamphlet now).

You could be surprised to read any of Orwell's books supporting socialism but I figure most people would, there's a great edition of 1984 which Fromm wrote a socialist afterword to aswell, although I doubt you'll find it you could find it online, I think I saw it once. That's all if you're interested though, most of the time I dont find people are when they post like you did previously, its just an opportunity to "hear themselves speak".
 

Lark

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- I am old enough to vote, but I'm afraid it's just more complicated than that
- I don't have a duty to do anything except look after myself and anyone else I wish to

this ties in nicely with the main topic though. it all has to do with whether you feel a sense of duty, how strong is that sense of duty, what is that sense of duty directed towards and would you ever value a cause more than your own life?

I've been reading about this in relation to Socrates, and also some Stoics, they sort of astound me, just how I feel presently, by how little terror death had for them, it is unavoidable and awaits us all (Fromm stated that he thought human beings were the only animal whose existence was a problem for it and if I'm not wrong Tillich wrote a book about having the courage to be) but it can still be terrifying and something you would wish to postpone indefinitely if possible.

Although I found out today that some versions of events suggest Socrates was in his mid or late forties, so about ten or more years older than me, which would perhaps have been old age in his day, it still seems courageous what he did, I confess I would have tried to escape my fate if I were him.

The accounts of Stoics suggesting as they were marched off to execution or to await execution that they got the last word contra whatever tyrant was arguing with them or told their fellows not to fear for them because they planned to discover whether or not there was an afterlife are incredible to me, perhaps they happened, perhaps it was naivety as much as courage.

The fact of death perhaps makes for thinking about what sort of death, the idea of a good death contra a terrible or bad one, however I do think that in contrast no one should pursue martyrdom, it is better to live as an example or in hope in an imperfect, and necessarily so, reality than sacrifice yourself, possible others in the process, to the perfect vision or cause. To me that is some how idolatrous. I am a theist and believe that if God can tolerate imperfection then so should we but there are secular versions of this, steering a course between idealpolitik and realpolitik for instance.
 

Elfboy

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If you don't participate in a society, do not expect that society to cherish you as a participant

Your duty is to complain

society owes me nothing. I simply ask that it stay out of my way
 

chickpea

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if the cause was important enough to me, and i thought me dying would make a difference, sure.
 

Antimony

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I believe that they believe they are serving humanity

You're missing the point though

The government is people

Terrorist is people

Soylent green is people


I believe I am beginning to notice something

The posts of Beargrllz seem to be following some sort of pattern almost

But maybe it is just this one

I've seen this before somewhere

I think Beargrllz is secretly turning into Victor.
 

Beargryllz

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I believe I am beginning to notice something

The posts of Beargrllz seem to be following some sort of pattern almost

But maybe it is just this one

I've seen this before somewhere

I think Beargrllz is secretly turning into Victor.

It's catchy, isn't it

I like the way it flows

Do you think this is a good way to type?

I think it is

We should keep doing this
 

Antimony

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It's catchy, isn't it

I like the way it flows

Do you think this is a good way to type?

I think it is

We should keep doing this

It is kind of catchy

But it takes away from Victor's style of posting

If we keep typing like this, we will confuse people

But confusion is the opium of the people

So maybe it is good to get everyone high

/end statement that makes no sense

Yes, I could be quite good at this.
 

lunalum

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And in our expression of the weight of our causes

we find a cause ourselves

the one that keeps coming back and weighs most greatly

is that of imitation

:D
 
A

Anew Leaf

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I would die for you all if I could die but a billion billion times.

What is this dream but a dream within a dream within a fortune cookie wrapped inside a cellophane foil tucked neatly into a vest of a person meandering a shrubbery maze.

Are we anything but dreams of dreams? Dreams made flesh and made of sand.

You can cup your hands and cradle a universe of grains of sand.

Gazing inward we see the universe that resides within ourselves.

That was once a dream until we dreamed it. And now it sparkles and swirls within us. A living dream where souls reside and die.

So for you I would die because you are a universe inside yourself as well.

Please dream of me when I go.
 

Magic Poriferan

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There are some causes I believe in. I might die for them if my death could significantly further them and do so a great deal more than my living. Most of the time though, I think the stuff about dying for your cause is so much glorious balderdash. You're a lot less useful as a corpse.
 

citizen cane

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No. I'm too much of a pussy and I like living too much.
 

Oaky

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I have my own personal values I would die for. Yes.
 

Lord Guess

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I think I would, if I found something worth dying for, but time will tell... I rather like being alive, though, so I'd have to say no for now.
 
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