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Can Hard Work beat talent?

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  • yes

    Votes: 26 81.3%
  • no.

    Votes: 6 18.8%

  • Total voters
    32

highlander

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I know talent without hard work doesn't amount to much. I'd say hard work can and often does beat talent. It does relate to how much talent, how much hard work, and what type of thing you are talking about. As has been pointed out, if you can't sing, you can't sing no matter how hard you try.
 

Lord Guess

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I know talent without hard work doesn't amount to much. I'd say hard work can and often does beat talent. It does relate to how much talent, how much hard work, and what type of thing you are talking about. As has been pointed out, if you can't sing, you can't sing no matter how hard you try.

Exactly. Obviously, having no talent at all won't do you any good, but if the comparison is between someone with average talent and years of experience and hard work behind him, versus someone with lots of raw potential but without much experience or work put toward developing it, the experience will be a much better asset.
 

entropie

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I meant if you have a talent or a skill in self defense, you are warded against getting beaten up, otherwise c'est la vie
 

amerellis

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Once in my highschool anatomy class a very sucessful military surgeon (INTJ) came in to give us a talk and his main message was that he believed sucess required only a threshold of intellignece. That you didn't have to be that smart an A student, as he hadn't been growing up, you just had to be smart enough to surpass the "threshold" and that the rest of it was determined by hard work. I think there is a lot of truth to his theory. I would tend to agree that you have to have some level of smarts but mostly sucess is determined by hard work.
 

entropie

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Once in my highschool anatomy class a very sucessful military surgeon (INTJ) came in to give us a talk and his main message was that he believed sucess required only a threshold of intellignece. That you didn't have to be that smart an A student, as he hadn't been growing up, you just had to be smart enough to surpass the "threshold" and that the rest of it was determined by hard work. I think there is a lot of truth to his theory. I would tend to agree that you have to have some level of smarts but mostly sucess is determined by hard work.

ouh yes, hey thats the first time I agree completly with you and thats tho I am a grumpy never satisfied old man :)
 
A

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It's possible, I guess. It's tough to say without looking at other factors; such as, work history or a portfolio. A talented person might not have to work hard, but then might not work at all. Futhermore, an untalented hard worker might mass produce a poor quality product.

Looking at quality vs. quantity.
 
T

ThatGirl

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I think it depends on the effort put forth by the talented person. Hard work can mimic talent as far as results go. If the talented person puts forth an equal amount of effort to secure the same result though, talent wins. Mostly because talent lightens work, and allows someone to achieve the same results with less effort. So while the talented person is only expending little energy, the untalented much more. If equally matched, the talented person will win due to longevity, being more fresh and prepared for times when the situation calls for the above and beyond. Which will be a taxing demise for the untalented.

This has actually been a concern of mine, since my interests tend to gravitate more toward the areas I feel less naturally talented in.
 

Lord Guess

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I think it depends on the effort put forth by the talented person. Hard work can mimic talent as far as results go. If the talented person puts forth an equal amount of effort to secure the same result though, talent wins. Mostly because talent lightens work, and allows someone to achieve the same results with less effort. So while the talented person is only expending little energy, the untalented much more. If equally matched, the talented person will win due to longevity, being more fresh and prepared for times when the situation calls for the above and beyond. Which will be a taxing demise for the untalented.

Pretty much, though I'd argue that if they are evenly matched skillwise, the experience and cunning that the hard worker possesses will give him an advantage over the naturally talented person. If it was a kickboxing match, for example, someone who had a certain amount of experience, and had enough raw talent to make up for the difference in experience against an older, physically less able, but far more experienced opponent, would find himself at a disadvantage, since "age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill".
 
T

ThatGirl

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Well hello.

I think in that case time would contribute to a reduction in talent, as the physical body is subject to depreciation. This would once again even the playing field.
 

FDG

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I think it depends on the effort put forth by the talented person. Hard work can mimic talent as far as results go. If the talented person puts forth an equal amount of effort to secure the same result though, talent wins. Mostly because talent lightens work, and allows someone to achieve the same results with less effort. So while the talented person is only expending little energy, the untalented much more. If equally matched, the talented person will win due to longevity, being more fresh and prepared for times when the situation calls for the above and beyond. Which will be a taxing demise for the untalented.

Yep. That's exactly my experience, having been both the more talented but less hard working person in some environments, and more hard working but less talented in others.

age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill

That's generally not true if you check out peak human performance (say, sport starts and extremely high level academics).
 

Oaky

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Talent is simply the level of quickness you are able to adhere to the particular skill. If someone with talent and a hard worker work an equal amount the one with talent will most surely surpass the other.
 

Lord Guess

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Well hello.

I think in that case time would contribute to a reduction in talent, as the physical body is subject to depreciation. This would once again even the playing field.

So in other words, if all things are equal, and the playing field is completely level, there is no advantage to be had. It's just that usually, hard work gives you advantages that raw talent on its own can't; once the advantages on both sides are removed, there is, of course, no difference between the two.

uncommonentity said:
There's no such thing as talent since everything is learnt. Hard work wins by default.

I completely disagree with this statement (except your conclusion), and I'll tell you why. Some people have a natural affinity for developing skills that outstrips the norm; this is really what we call natural talent. The question here is, is having this natural affinity enough to make up for a lack of hard work and experience, and the answer, as we all know, is no.

FDG said:
That's generally not true if you check out peak human performance (say, sport starts and extremely high level academics).

You're right, though the reason for that (in the sports case) is because there is a higher dependency on having a physical advantage over your opponent; at that point, the talent becomes the deciding factor since they are both working equally hard, and will have similar levels of experience. If your experience cannot make up for your physical disadvantage, then it won't do you much good; however, if the person with the raw talent does not also have the experience to back it up, then that talent becomes a moot point. As for academics, it has more to do with a general slowdown of the brain than anything else (actually, I'm fairly sure I read somewhere that the brain doesn't actually slow down as you age; can't quite remember where it was, though.); if the only resource you have at your disposal is weakening, then naturally you will be at a disadvantage. In sports, you have the advantage of using both your body and brain as a resource; if your body is too weak, though, then your experience will count for less and less.
 

Craft

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Talent is simply the level of quickness you are able to adhere to the particular skill. If someone with talent and a hard worker work an equal amount the one with talent will most surely surpass the other.

"work an equal amount" doesn't showcase the factor of hardwork.

Hardwork is application and talent is internal. As a lazy INTP, I find it easy to accept the importance hardwork.
 

redcheerio

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Also keep in mind the importance social and political skills. Someone who is both top talent and the hardest working can be taken down if a higher up doesn't like them. So when people like that refuse to learn social and political skills, their only hope of success is to start their own venture, but even then, they will lose all their best talented people if they don't learn some downward direction social skills, just as they won't move up in a larger company without upward direction and teamworking social skills.

Sometimes talent requires additional social skills to compensate for resentment from less talented. Being unintimidating can have the opposite effect and bring the political tide in your favor. Depends on the context.

I started a Toastmasters group from scratch at my last office and served as president, and our club did exceptionally well for a new club, reaching Distinguished Club status during our second year.

This is noteworthy as I have almost zero natural talent in public speaking. I found it hilarious and eye-opening when one guy told me that one of the reasons he liked our group so much and me as president was because I was so unintimidating as a speaker.
:rofl1:

I have had much less political success in areas where I am significantly more talented than I am in public speaking. :laugh:

In opposition to the forces of talent and hard work, political forces favor the likeable and the average. Case in point: GW Bush.

There are exceptions, also, but those forces exist.

The ideal is to be talented, hardworking, likeable, and unintimidating (at least on the way up). Edit: On second thought, maybe only unintimidating to higher-ups, as demonstrated by XNTJs? Not sure.

Having said all that, I also agree that for the most part, only a threshold level of talent or intelligence is required in most cases. Additional talent is only useful at the leading edge, and only in limited amounts.
 

Oaky

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"work an equal amount" doesn't showcase the factor of hardwork.

Hardwork is application and talent is internal. As a lazy INTP, I find it easy to accept the importance hardwork.
Hard work applies to great effort given with the amount of work one does. If effort is equal for two individuals, the one with greater talent will surpass the other assuming they start out with equality in the levels within the skill.
 

Craft

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Hard work applies to great effort given with the amount of work one does. If effort is equal for two individuals, the one with greater talent will surpass the other assuming they start out with equality in the levels within the skill.

*If effort is equal.

Effort affects work by a larger margin than skill. Having effort but no skill produces something(experience primarily), while having skill and no effort produces nothing.

"Guess and Check" is an example of effort-based activity. Evolution is also an example.
 

Oaky

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*If effort is equal.

Effort affects work by a larger margin than skill. Having effort but no skill produces something(experience primarily), while having skill and no effort produces nothing.

"Guess and Check" is an example of effort-based activity. Evolution is also an example.
This does not go against what I've said.
 

GZA

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There is no such thing as talent without hard work. Talent is something that is created throw dedication and effort and hard work. I wasn't talented at anything until I worked hard at it. When I worked hard at the things I'm talented at, I ended up going further than most of my peers. My natural inclination for these things would be meaningless without my hard work, and my hard work has been fueled by my love for what I'm doing and the connection I have with it that I suppose is the "talent" aspect. If someone with no talent works at something, they will become good at it, but without the connection/understanding and love that talented people have with their talents, they just won't achieve the same things and probably won't be able to work as hard without burning out or whatever.
 

Craft

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This does not go against what I've said.

Just making sure. I don't really get why anyone would mention the importance of talent. A bit too obvious for many.
 
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