Does mainstream = bad?

[Elfboy]

It's funny that you want to distance yourself from hipsters (many of whom are as elitist about their taste in art and music as your own). It's kind of hilarious, actually.
There's nothing wrong with high quality and I admit from an aesthetic point of view that some music is obviously more complex than others.
On the other hand, art makes people feel, they resonate with it, and people express themselves. As long as a person is genuinely doing that you can't objectively say that it isn't art.

exactly that's my point. I like mainstream stuff that is real and expresses what it truly wants to express. some examples include
- Lord of the Rings
- Star Wars
- Evanescence
the problem I have is art that is simply there to capture the most peoples' attention and please people at the expense of expressing a real message.

 

[Elfboy]

I don't feel compelled to provide an explanation for something that's so obvious. I was hoping you'd admit that you're prejudiced and elitist, that is all.

elitist: yes
prejudiced: no
I apologize, my last few posts were a little more harsh than usual (stressful times I'm afraid), but the message does remain the same. if you are going to criticize someone, it IS your responsibility to support it with some form of further explanation or proposition

 

[Thalassa]

exactly that's my point. I like mainstream stuff that is real and expresses what it truly wants to express. some examples include
- Lord of the Rings
- Star Wars
- Evanescence
the problem I have is art that is simply there to capture the most peoples' attention and please people at the expense of expressing a real message.

But I don't like Star Wars that much, or Lord of the Rings. However, I am able to recognize the complexity of these works from a cultural perspective even though they are not my taste.

I do know what you mean by works of art being more complex or expressive. Rob Zombie's Halloween, as a horror film, has more complexity and depth than the re-make of House of Wax with Paris Hilton. The Exorcist and The Omen? Potentially even more so because of the extreme psychological and spiritual elements of the story line, though Zombie made Halloween much more psych-based than the original.

I get that much. As someone who loves art and music and literature, I do get it. It's why I can recognize quality even in a genre or work that I can't stand...often, not all of the time, though. Like for example I hate abstract art. I do not appreciate it. I do not think it takes as much talent as painting a highly detailed portrait or landscape, or crafting a particularly fine piece of furniture or a building. However, there are extremely educated people who would think I'm a complete dumbass because I don't like, appreciate, or even really validate abstract art as a genre. I know an INTP with a PhD who seems to prefer abstract art. I can't even begin to fathom why.

I do recognize when something is more complex. On the other hand, I think Agatha Christie novels are just as valid as art as "high brow" literature, even though she's considered popular culture.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

elitist: yes
prejudiced: no
I apologize, my last few posts were a little more harsh than usual (stressful times I'm afraid), but the message does remain the same. if you are going to criticize someone, it IS your responsibility to support it with some form of further explanation or proposition

Most of your posts were prejudiced bloody-anal-secretions claiming that popular music isn't "real art", you are prejudiced against popular music. It's not my responsibility to cite Webster's when it's clearly your responsibility to know about words and their meanings when arguing that a word whose definition you're not aware of is not descriptive of your attitude.

Back on topic: Popular music isn't always derivative of a genre, sometimes the pioneers of a genre become mainstream. Does that make their music, which was formerly "real art", somehow less authentic now than it was before they gained mainstream status? I'm anticipating an affirmative answer ---> Elfboy: Yes ---> Legerdemain: Why?

 

[Elfboy]

But I don't like Star Wars that much, or Lord of the Rings. However, I am able to recognize the complexity of these works from a cultural perspective even though they are not my taste.

I do know what you mean by works of art being more complex or expressive. Rob Zombie's Halloween, as a horror film, has more complexity and depth than the re-make of House of Wax with Paris Hilton. The Exorcist and The Omen? Potentially even more so because of the extreme psychological and spiritual elements of the story line, though Zombie made Halloween much more psych-based than the original.

I get that much. As someone who loves art and music and literature, I do get it. It's why I can recognize quality even in a genre or work that I can't stand...often, not all of the time, though. Like for example I hate abstract art. I do not appreciate it. I do not think it takes as much talent as painting a highly detailed portrait or landscape, or crafting a particularly fine piece of furniture or a building. However, there are extremely educated people who would think I'm a complete dumbass because I don't like, appreciate, or even really validate abstract art as a genre. I know an INTP with a PhD who seems to prefer abstract art. I can't even begin to fathom why.

I do recognize when something is more complex. On the other hand, I think Agatha Christie novels are just as valid as art as "high brow" literature, even though she's considered popular culture.

it doesn't look like we really disagreed on anything. still, I don't appreciate you telling me to "grow up" every time you (in this case, think you) disagree with me. playing the age card does not convince me of anything other than that you probably need to fold

 

[Thalassa]

it doesn't look like we really disagreed on anything. still, I don't appreciate you telling me to "grow up" every time you (in this case, think you) disagree with me. playing the age card does not convince me of anything other than that you probably need to fold

But a lot of your mistakes are because of your immaturity or lack of life experience, not just because of simple disagreement.

 

[Elfboy]

Most of your posts were prejudiced bloody-anal-secretions claiming that popular music isn't "real art", you are prejudiced against popular music. It's not my responsibility to cite Webster's when it's clearly your responsibility to know about words and their meanings when arguing that a word whose definition you're not aware of is not descriptive of your attitude.

Back on topic: Popular music isn't always derivative of a genre, sometimes the pioneers of a genre become mainstream. Does that make their music, which was formerly "real art", somehow less authentic now than it was before they gained mainstream status? I'm anticipating an affirmative answer ---> Elfboy: Yes ---> Legerdemain: Why?

no there're not. I'm opposed to art that is people pleasing, shallow and inauthentic, not mainstream. I've already made this distinction and listed a few main stream examples of art that I do like, but I'll list a few more
- Death Note
- Gone With The Wind
- anything by Quentin Tarantino (although this isn't really main stream, much too politically incorrect and but it at least has a main stream audience)
- The Hangover
- Horrible Bosses
I could go on. saying that I hate mainstream everything is NOT the point I was making

 

[Elfboy]

But a lot of your mistakes are because of your immaturity or lack of life experience, not just because of simple disagreement.

mistakes? we ended up agreeing with each other.

 

[Thalassa]

We agree on most points but I still disagree with the attitude you display here:

You mean, in theory, they're supposed to. truthfully, they rarely do. another thing I don't like is it gets rid of the exclusivity. opera is supposed to be exclusive, it's not supposed to be this cheap, mass produced thing that every simpleton you meet can understand. making an art form popularized makes it people pleasing, thus loosing it's integrity and authenticity.

Liking something just because it's exclusive is pretty immature, IMO. Some people don't grow out of it. I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt by hoping that you only see it this way because of your youth. If you were 40 and thought that way, I might actually think less of you.

I tend to agree with what Leger said:

Yeah, you're right. If you can't eat Siberian Tiger liver pate and listen to fat Italians moaning to each other without those filthy plebeians getting involved, you might as well stab yourself in the face.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

no there're not. I'm opposed to art that is people pleasing, shallow and inauthentic, not mainstream. I've already made this distinction and listed a few main stream examples of art that I do like, but I'll list a few more
- Death Note
- Gone With The Wind
- anything by Quentin Tarantino (although this isn't really main stream, much too politically incorrect and but it at least has a main stream audience)
- The Hangover
- Horrible Bosses
I could go on. saying that I hate mainstream everything is NOT the point I was making

Tarantino is mainstream. I understand your point. I disagree that you're able to make the distinction between people pleasing and mainstream. The Hangover? jesus fucking christ, I just wasted at least 7 minutes responding to your posts.

 

[Elfboy]

Tarantino is mainstream. I understand your point. I disagree that you're able to make the distinction between people pleasing and mainstream. The Hangover? jesus fucking christ, I just wasted at least 7 minutes responding to your posts.

comedy is a little different, it's purpose is more simple. the purpose of comedy is to be funny, I like things that are funny. therefore, I liked the Hangover
I think at the end of the day what I really hate is people who are fake, people pleasing and crowd pleasing. people like that just royally piss me off

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

is the Ace of Base video on your profile supposed to be funny too?

 

[Randomnity]

no there're not. I'm opposed to art that is people pleasing, shallow and inauthentic, not mainstream. I've already made this distinction

Mainstream = people pleasing.

What's intrinsically wrong with pleasing people? You are an element of "people". Is an event more fun for you if everyone around you has a bad time?

 

[Elfboy]

is the Ace of Base video on your profile supposed to be funny too?

no, that's called good ass music

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

Lol...ok.

 

[Viridian]

you mean, in theory, they're supposed to. truthfully, they rarely do. another thing I don't like is it gets rid of the exclusivity. opera is supposed to be exclusive, it's not supposed to be this cheap, mass produced thing that every simpleton you meet can understand. making an art form popularized makes it people pleasing, thus loosing it's integrity and authenticity.

You sound quite a bit like Walter Benjamin here.

 

[Jaguar]

 

[Elfboy]

Mainstream = people pleasing.

What's intrinsically wrong with pleasing people? You are an element of "people". Is an event more fun for you if everyone around you has a bad time?

a few points

1) no. people pleasing is an intention; mainstream is a result. being mainstream can either be the result of
a) people pleasing
b) highly political/corporate record label deals and marketing or
c) getting popular by focusing on what is truly important: the message you wish to express with your art.

2) people pleasing is doing something with the purpose of gaining the adoration, attention or acceptance of those around you. people pleasing is for weak, insecure parasites who need others to validate their pathetic existance

3) to answer your question, other people's mood usually has no effect on how much I enjoy something. when it does though, it is more often that I feel better because the negative energy of the people around me is more amusing than positive energy. for example, when I first saw Inglourious Basterds, I was the only one in the theatre laughing, this made it even funnier so I laughed more

 

[Elfboy]

You sound quite a bit like Walter Benjamin here.

who is Walter Benjamin?

 

[Thalassa]

no, that's called good ass music

Ummm...wow.

All of your posts about opera just completely got negated in my mind.