Defining "Church"

[Tophsquatch]

How do you define "church"?

Is it a stiff and smelly old building, or a giant warehouse? Is it the people that constitute the "church", or the staff that runs the program? How would you define it?

 

[Seanan]

How do you define "church"?

Is it a stiff and smelly old building, or a giant warehouse? Is it the people that constitute the "church", or the staff that runs the program? How would you define it?

I define it the way Jesus did... meaning the body of people whether they meet in a building or not. The place a congregation meets is just that... a meeting place... which can be outside under a tree or in a temple, synagogue, mosque, etc.

 

[Recoleta]

I consider a church to be more about the people than the actual building...the building really has nothing to do with it IMO...even though it is often what comes to mind first. I've been to churches that took place in a high school gym, in an empty cinderblock building, or even in an open field. I'd say it's a collective grouping of people that come together to share, listen, and sometimes discuss (but mostly listen, I guess) their personal beliefs. Generally, the same or similar personal beliefs are shared bewteen the members, and I think churches serve the purposes of affirming your beliefs and to provide a sense of community/worship and accountability to its members. In general, there is a pastor and other leaders who have likely gone to seminary or have had some formal education in theology etc and who have studied the Bible (for the intents and purposes of this post I am only addressing the Christian church), but frankly, I think that pastors are not completely essential to a church although they do provide leadership and organization.

I agree with what Seanan said above, though.

 

[Seanan]

I'd say it's a collective grouping of people that come together to share, listen, and sometimes discuss (but mostly listen, I guess) their personal beliefs. Generally, the same or similar personal beliefs are shared bewteen the members, and I think churches serve the purposes of affirming your beliefs and to provide a sense of community/worship and accountability to its members. In general, there is a pastor and other leaders who have likely gone to seminary or have had some formal education in theology etc and who have studied the Bible (for the intents and purposes of this post I am only addressing the Christian church), but frankly, I think that pastors are not completely essential to a church although they do provide leadership and organization.

I agree with what Seanan said above, though.

I think you're right and its the reason I am no longer a part of any congregation. If (unlikely) I ever found a group of people (church) in which the paramount goal was following the lead or learning from the most knowledgeable member in the form an a truly educated pastor who followed the religion's tenants and taught only those, (given I would have to agree with them) I would attend. I'm afraid that is, in fact, where religion.. especially Christianity... is getting its bad reputation. The uneducated (in the religion) membership is feeding itself and some of it is not pretty. What someone is wearing can, I think, be "spun" into being part of religious tenant but its a stretch and can be refuted by the more important teachings of the religion. When the varied "personal beliefs" of a congregation dominates... the whole purpose of the "church" is gone. It then deteorates into the socially skilled members having inordinate power... just another social structure having little or nothing to do with the real spiritual purpose for attendance. Of course, I realize that the purpose for some is just "I went to church on Sunday... thus I'm a good person."

 

[Recoleta]

Mmmhmmm, I can definitely see where you're coming from here...and I think you're right...that is where Christianity really draws a lot of its skepticism. Also, those "varied personal beliefs" of congregation members who have not studied the Bible for themselves (but just went to church because they were forced to when they were young or something) really opens up doors to a lot of dissention and relativism within the congregation. How can a body of like-minded believers exist in a community where no one agrees? Plus, add that to the fact that pastors, are indeed, only humans like you and me (regardless of their education and personal study).

I'm currently studying to be a teacher...and one thing that I have come to realize is that I am not "the authority," and it is not my job to solely impart knowledge onto my students. Instead I should be facilitating my students to think for themselves...and yes, part of that process involves teaching concepts that they are not yet aware of, but what I teach is about application and not just regurgitation of facts. As for religion, I definitely think that is imperative to evaluate your beliefs and really understand why you believe them on a personal level...not just because it's what you've been fed by others. The older I get, the more I realize that religion is so much more than just "going to church on Sunday"...it is really something deeply personal to me and is a huge and integrated part of who I am. I find that I even have "church" amongst some of my good friends (even though we don't call it that) who do believe similarly to what I believe. We have accountability between each other and can bring up problems/struggles -- and to me, that kind of community is nice.

When it boils down to it, I believe that God knows our hearts and intentions.

 

[Seanan]

On what we're discussing... I like the TV minister, Joyce Meyers, and she said something once that really took me aback (she has a habit of doing that LOL) Anyway words to the effect:

"So many of you complain that this church member or that is judgemental, petty, competitive and so on.. well, you know what, church is not, mainly, for the healthy.. its for the sick... they need to be here."

Haha... still cracks me up when I think of it... she's the ballsiest minister I've ever seen.. she cuts right to the heart and I guess alot of people like it based on her following.

Re: teaching... I do disagree with some but that's another conversation I guess... I think kids are sadly in need of "authority figures."

 

[skip]

I like Joyce Meyers' straightforwardness, too; interestingly, my agnostic roommate will stop flipping channels when he sees her and listen to her for a bit! A church is the community, not the building. Religion is a way of life, not just a Sunday service.

Sounds like you have some good friends, Recoleta.

 

[nozflubber]

A church can be anything. When someone asks me if I go to church or not and I suspect they're gonna be long-winded, I tell them yes I do: I go to the church in my head everyday. That usually ends the conversation, but the truth is that it's not really a lie

 

[Poser]

Re: teaching... I do disagree with some but that's another conversation I guess... I think kids are sadly in need of "authority figures."

I disagree. Kids are sadly in need of authority figures but it should be the parents at home, not the teachers.

 

[Seanan]

I disagree. Kids are sadly in need of authority figures but it should be the parents at home, not the teachers.

I understand what you're saying and agree but I was referring to the "respect" factor. When a teacher becomes a "buddy" its as bad for the kids as parents trying to be "friends." There should be lots of "authority figures" for a kid. Being too free and independent is proven to be subconsiously frightening to them and the cause of many psychological and behavior problems. They're too young developmentally to deal with the idea that "its just them"... they know as much as anyone else... yes, scarey. I'm sure I didn't say that well as I'm in a hurry.

 

[Poser]

I understand what you're saying and agree but I was referring to the "respect" factor. When a teacher becomes a "buddy" its as bad for the kids as parents trying to be "friends." There should be lots of "authority figures" for a kid. Being too free and independent is proven to be subconsiously frightening to them and the cause of many psychological and behavior problems. They're too young developmentally to deal with the idea that "its just them"... they know as much as anyone else... yes, scarey. I'm sure I didn't say that well as I'm in a hurry.

Nope. We are on the same page. Takes a village...

 

[nightning]

I noticed that when religious people say "church" they don't really mean "church church" as in the building... they say they mean "church" relating it to god... but to me... it felt like "church" is just a bunch of people forming a group... that's what "church" felt like.

 

[Recoleta]

I understand what you're saying and agree but I was referring to the "respect" factor. When a teacher becomes a "buddy" its as bad for the kids as parents trying to be "friends." There should be lots of "authority figures" for a kid. Being too free and independent is proven to be subconsiously frightening to them and the cause of many psychological and behavior problems. They're too young developmentally to deal with the idea that "its just them"... they know as much as anyone else... yes, scarey. I'm sure I didn't say that well as I'm in a hurry.

I just realized that what I wrote didn't come off as well in writing as I wanted it to. When I said I am not "the authority" -- I did not mean to say I am not an authority figure. I certainly believe that I should be a good role model for my students and should not let them walk all over me. However, as with all things in life I believe balance is very important. I demand respect, but at the same time, I want my students to know that I care about them and will be open to talking with them and helping them when they need or want it. I am a very business-minded person and I don't mess around when I'm at work, but at the same time I believe it's very important that the students know that I am a human too -- I don't live in the school building and I certainly have a sense of humor that likes to come out. What I meant to say was that I am not simply there to be a complete "know-it-all" (a.k.a. the authority...the end all and say all on a certain subject that I teach). Sure, it is my job to be knowledgeable and to teach what I do know, but I do not want my classroom to be one where I tell my students, "I know everything, and you know nothing, I will tell you everything you need to know and later you will take a test and tell me how well you can regurgitate facts." I want to teach my students relevant things that they can use and apply in their lives -- which goes way beyond rote memorization.

But anyway, trying to get this very off-topic post back on track, I was trying to use teaching as a metaphore to what I think a pastor should be doing with the congregation. The pastor is not there to say, "I have studied the Bible, therefore I know everything there is to know and I will now impart this information to you, the unknowledgeable congragation." No, I believe it is the pastor's job to bring up topics that are relevant to our lives, tell us what the Bible says about it, and urge us to evaluate our own lives and seek out accoutability and fellowship with others. So yeah, does that make a little more sense?

 

[Poser]

Sure, it is my job to be knowledgeable and to teach what I do know, but I do not want my classroom to be one where I tell my students, "I know everything, and you know nothing, I will tell you everything you need to know and later you will take a test and tell me how well you can regurgitate facts." I want to teach my students relevant things that they can use and apply in their lives -- which goes way beyond rote memorization.

But anyway, trying to get this very off-topic post back on track, I was trying to use teaching as a metaphore to what I think a pastor should be doing with the congregation. The pastor is not there to say, "I have studied the Bible, therefore I know everything there is to know and I will now impart this information to you, the unknowledgeable congragation." No, I believe it is the pastor's job to bring up topics that are relevant to our lives, tell us what the Bible says about it, and urge us to evaluate our own lives and seek out accoutability and fellowship with others. So yeah, does that make a little more sense?

You sound like an excellent teacher.

Back to religion, I think I would enjoy listening to a pastor who would be more like a teacher (and would probably even start going to church on a regular basis). But I wonder if a church like that would end up with a lot of agnostic members?

 

[anii]

- "the part-time job you're not getting paid for"
- "poor substitution for genuine community"
- "you won't get laid here"
- "obsolete method for controlling the behavior of the masses"
- "old fangled real estate acquisition apparatus"
- "all the dogma you didn't know you don't need"
- "institutionalized conditional love"
- "same dirty old men, different venue"
- "so over"

 

[Recoleta]

Back to religion, I think I would enjoy listening to a pastor who would be more like a teacher (and would probably even start going to church on a regular basis). But I wonder if a church like that would end up with a lot of agnostic members?

Possibly, but what would be so wrong with that?

 

[swordpath]

boring. pointless. unnecessary.

That's how I'd define church.

 

[Mole]

The Dose

Poets create religion; prophets abuse religion; and priests do it to death.

Religion is usually started by a charismatic person but charisma only lasts a short time - rarely even the life the life of an individual. But life must go on - so the religion must become bureaucratised and so loses its charisma - but we constantly seek to regain that careless rapture - so we have revivals or we criticize our religion as lifeless.

The problem is that poets are dangerous but bureaucracies are lifeless.

My answer is that religion is very nice, in small doses.

And the toxicity lies in the dose.

Victor.

 

[Poser]

Possibly, but what would be so wrong with that?

Actually, I have no idea what a large gathering of agnostics would be like. I can imagine it would be more like a press conference or maybe a large courtroom where everyone is the lawyer standing up and yelling "I object". It would be hard for the pastor to get his message across. Seriously though, I think for a religion/church to exist it would have to appeal to feelings more than logic. The logic in faith will never be able to be substantiated so it would be a losing argument. So, I think churches have to depend on the emotional and if you don't have that emotional connection you wouldn't find much enjoyment in being there.

 

[cafe]

The logic of faith is built upon premises that are accepted on faith. Hermeneutics and apologetics are systems of logic built on premises of faith.

I'm personally a kind of agnostic (because I don't think anyone can know in this life) and a believer (because I believe). Church is a gathering of believers that meets in order to learn, encourage one another, and/or worship. I agree that most of the ministers we've heard are not as educated as we might like or at least they don't break out the good stuff in regular services, which is too bad and sometimes frustrating.

We didn't attend services for close to a year but we didn't feel right about it because we do want to obey the teaching not to forsake the assembly and we want our kids to have the exposure to Sunday School, etc. We like and respect our pastors and their wives. They are some of the most loving, accepting people we've ever met. That seems to help the overall climate of the congregation.

Our church is non-denominational, so they only really concentrate on the major points of doctrine when they do hit on it. I've heard a lot of churches say they were non-denominational, but our pastor, for instance, is a pre-tribber and our associate pastor is a post-tribber. It's not a secret and there is some teasing about, but it's not a big deal. I like that.

So we go out of obedience and more for fellowship than teaching and sometimes we have to make ourselves put in the time because we'd just as soon be at home sleeping. We certainly don't think going to church makes us good people.* It's just the right thing for us to do, so we try to do it even if it's not always a great time.

*My husband and I met at Bible college and some of the most callous, dishonest, unkind people we've ever met were administrators there. Regular church attenders and former pastors of many years, the lot of them. It didn't make those men good. Getting the living crap beat out of them in a barroom brawl because they were rude pricks might have helped them improve, but church sure wasn't doing the trick.