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Degrees of Feminism

Tallulah

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Yeah, the boobs one and the BMW "blonde in the library" one. I guess maybe I would feel differently about that one if I were blonde. But then again, my blonde daughter loves blonde jokes.

I'm blonde, and I thought it was funny.
 

Fluffywolf

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I wonder what women were like before feminism. :smile:
 

Thalassa

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They were like your grandma. Well, that is, before second wave feminism.

The whole idea freaks me out quite frankly. It's fucking scary the way women were controlled and treated as property in the Western world before the early 20th century.
 

Thalassa

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In fact, it's kind of a barbaric question. What were African-Americans like before Civil Rights? What were epileptics like when people still locked them in institutions? What were mentally ill people like when people gave them exorcisms? What were people like before reading became common?

I think people want to gloss over this shit, and how it wasn't that long ago in the grand scheme of things. Those people usually call themselves anarcho-capitalist libertarians and I think we only have to look to the past to see how out of touch with reality they are.
 

Fluffywolf

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I'm just too new age. I don't see any difference between men and women that actually matter.

To me, that there was a need of feminism in the first place is just one big joke. I don't understand what reasons could lead anyone to keep someone from realizing their fullest potential. It is just counterproductive.

At least the western society has reached the point where the rights and chances are no longer divided. And the only thing left are opinions of people that don't matter.
 
G

Ginkgo

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The tire commercial is totally sexist. All the flashing images of construction, signs, etc, and her wide-eyed apprehension, coupled with the suspenseful music, then the slogan, "When a woman's at the wheel?" It's a wee bit insulting, as if a poor woman's brain can't handle all the stresses of the road and is much likely to be overwhelmed and veer into traffic or something.

If a man watching the commercial cared about the woman, would it make it suspenseful?
 

xisnotx

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Perhaps a feminist could explain something to me...

How in the world can 50% of a population be a "minority group" (and not just by numbers, in any sense of the word..). I've always thought it a bit weird that a group that in some cases out number the out-group could be oppressed. If so, how? Based on physicality? The days of brute force being a major factor in survival are long gone. If women are treated differently (which they are, I'm not saying that they aren't) wouldn't it be due to vestiges of what it meant to be human? How can you dislike a people for being who they evolved to be? Is it not within every man's nature to "protect women"? What women see as "them being owned" I've always seen as "men protecting women". From what? From the harsh realities of the world! Women, I think, have always been considered "too special" or "too pure" to participate in the brutality that the world has to offer. Why any women would willingly choose that is beyond me...but then again, why I choose to participate in the brutality of the world is a mystery to me as well..

If the argument is "Well, I don't want or need protection" then my response is simple; "Well, I want to give it to you". Of course, if you feel that you want room to grow and develop and "be your own person" that's all well and good too..but I don't see how it's a bad thing to want to provide for a woman. It's baffling...it really is. Perhaps the application of this want is a bit off, and perhaps we have taken it to extremes in the past (we are men after all, extremes is what we do..lol), but how can they're be anything but appreciation for this? What, we love you "too much"?

Feminism, it seems, is nothing more than just a body of thought that can be reduced to this "Men don't understand what women want.." to which the answer is "Well, duh you keep on being dissatisfied with whatever we provide! Do you want us to leave you alone? Do you want us to not provide for you? No? Then why don't you just tell us, in no uncertain terms, what the hell you want?!?"

"Oh well, it's complicated.."

I think every man is well aware of just how complicated it is.

And I love how I'm going to be accused of being a misogynist when my intentions are nothing but pure. It seems the definition of misogyny is "loving women to a fault". What fault? Whatever fault the women of the day feel like saying is a fault..

I mean, men went to the moon! To the moon! How can we go to the moon but still not be able to understand women? You want to know how? They are understandable and they are doing it on purpose.

ughh..im done...I really don't want to post this..but I will anyway..
 

The Outsider

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Isn't the Bud Light commercial more insulting to men?
 

Ivy

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Isn't the Bud Light commercial more insulting to men?

I thought so, yeah. I wonder if the person writing the article just didn't watch to the end, or didn't get it, or what?
 

jimrckhnd

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That's very true. I also don't think nagging is a sex-linked trait- we just don't tend to call it "nagging" when men do it. We call it pestering or controlling.

I also think it perpetuates an unnecessarily adversarial concept of M/F relationships.

That is a very good observation.

The female half of a couple of my acquaintance is a classic ”nag” using guilt and sheer emotional attrition to manipulate and control her fiancé. I remember thinking once that her MO was remarkably similar to that of a male spousal abuser: controlling schedule, social interactions, reducing contacts with friends and family, etc.. An insight I didn’t follow up on and had sort of forgotten till this thread came up. Doh!!

What is kind of interesting is she doesn't use that type of approach with other men in her orbit: with me she's very pleasant and polite. I wonder if she uses some type of emotional intelligence to determine who is a candidate for manipulation or... did she just find out it works with her partner and the more it works, the more she uses it.
 

The Outsider

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Isn't that still sexist?

It is, but the article below it reads:

How can a woman make her marriage work? By doing all the chores, leaving her husband free to hang out with his friends, and frequently surprising him with cases of Bud Light. Something to think about on your wedding day.

Which is kind of missing the mark.
 

onemoretime

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That is a very good observation.

The female half of a couple of my acquaintance is a classic ”nag” using guilt and sheer emotional attrition to manipulate and control her fiancé. I remember thinking once that her MO was remarkably similar to that of a male spousal abuser: controlling schedule, social interactions, reducing contacts with friends and family, etc.. An insight I didn’t follow up on and had sort of forgotten till this thread came up. Doh!!

What is kind of interesting is she doesn't use that type of approach with other men in her orbit: with me she's very pleasant and polite. I wonder if she uses some type of emotional intelligence to determine who is a candidate for manipulation or... did she just find out it works with her partner and the more it works, the more she uses it.

Great point. Emotional abuse is still abuse.
 

Viridian

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That's very true. I also don't think nagging is a sex-linked trait- we just don't tend to call it "nagging" when men do it. We call it pestering or controlling.

I also think it perpetuates an unnecessarily adversarial concept of M/F relationships.

Indeedy! Also, notice that women don't "complain". When they do, it's just "that time of the month" or they're being "hysterical". Only us MEN can have legitimate complaints, bay-bee! :pumpyouup:
 

PeaceBaby

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The best part of the Goodyear tire commercial was at the end, when the wifey slides over so the man can take over the wheel and drive home. Very typical of that timeframe.
 

Tallulah

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If a man watching the commercial cared about the woman, would it make it suspenseful?

I have no problem with a man worrying about his wife's safety because he cares about her. The sexist part of this commercial is that he's worried about her because the world is too overwhelming for her female brain and reflexes. And plays into stereotypes about women not being able to drive. Replace it with another stereotype and see if it's still sweet: "But when an Asian is at the wheel..." Patronizing? Offensive? Yep. You can care about the Asian person in question, but it still makes it a dumb and offensive stereotype. (Yes, PeaceBaby! Good observation about sliding over so the man can drive!)

Mkenya, I understand that the rules have changed, and lots of men are left confused. Heck, I'm confused sometimes because my dad was a mix of the protective, chivalric man, and a man who raised me to believe I could do anything a man could do. So it was weird to me to find out most guys seem to be either/or because of the mixed messages in society. :) There's nothing wrong with a man being a bit protective of a woman because he loves her, in my eyes. But if he's being protective because he thinks she's too weak and stupid to make it in the world, it becomes offensive. It's the intention.
 

Xenon

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I have no problem with a man worrying about his wife's safety because he cares about her. The sexist part of this commercial is that he's worried about her because the world is too overwhelming for her female brain and reflexes. And plays into stereotypes about women not being able to drive. Replace it with another stereotype and see if it's still sweet: "But when an Asian is at the wheel..." Patronizing? Offensive? Yep. You can care about the Asian person in question, but it still makes it a dumb and offensive stereotype.

Yeah, it seemed pretty damn obvious to me that the big scary part was supposed to be that the driver was a woman. The end of the commercial made that clear: "When a woman's at the wheel...." Emphasis on the word 'woman'. Not "When someone you love is at the wheel...", which would have been fine or even "When your wife's at the wheel..." which would have been more ambiguous. And the dramatic music and fast cuts made it seem like a woman driving was some unusual, edge-of-your-seat dangerous event. I saw this a few years ago and went, wow.
 

Z Buck McFate

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The best part of the Goodyear tire commercial was at the end, when the wifey slides over so the man can take over the wheel and drive home. Very typical of that timeframe.

Not only does she slide over but the music goes from being choppy and suspenseful to smooth and melodious, she goes from looking scared and wide-eyed to smiling and looking relaxed, there's several little cues to indicate they're 'home safe' now that he is behind the wheel.


Actually... the Bud Light one is kind of self-aware. I mean, they've got the two male ad execs holding hands and crying at the beautiful message in the end, and the female execs (there are female execs! that's good!) looking at them like they're idiots.

Yeah, I thought the same thing about the Mayhem ad as well- that it’s exaggerated to the point of making fun of the attitude that makes fun of stereotypes.

Overall it’s ads like the Axe commercial that bother me- and that particular ad listed is far from being the worst because (again) it’s so extreme (hoards of scantily clad, young and beautiful women gathering from afar because of a scent?) that it almost makes fun of itself. It’s the ones that seem to fly under the radar (don’t stand out as especially sexist per se) but still have strong objectifying messages that really bother me. At least the exaggerated ones make a lot of people think “wtf?” and bring a little bit of awareness (however tiny) to the table. I mean- that coffee ad almost certainly flew under the radar at the time- and stuff like that can shape a woman's idea of what she's supposed (and shape what 'society' is saying a woman is supposed to be) to be if it doesn't stand out as particularly questionable.
 

Thalassa

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That is a very good observation.

The female half of a couple of my acquaintance is a classic ”nag” using guilt and sheer emotional attrition to manipulate and control her fiancé. I remember thinking once that her MO was remarkably similar to that of a male spousal abuser: controlling schedule, social interactions, reducing contacts with friends and family, etc.. An insight I didn’t follow up on and had sort of forgotten till this thread came up. Doh!!

What is kind of interesting is she doesn't use that type of approach with other men in her orbit: with me she's very pleasant and polite. I wonder if she uses some type of emotional intelligence to determine who is a candidate for manipulation or... did she just find out it works with her partner and the more it works, the more she uses it.

It's not interesting at all that she doesn't use the same behavior with other men. She's not interested in those other men, and whatever insecurity she has or jealousy only pertains to her significant other.

Genearally insecurity and jealousy are at the heart of controlling behavior. And of course the more out of control and unreasonable it is, the more abusive it becomes, like in terms of violence and things.
 
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