Understanding invisible threads that change how actions are judged.

[RDF]

Speaking of Athenian right now: don't you think it's much more a case of the latter than the former? Just look at the "rejection post" above: it's got "ferocious" and "I reject this because it affects values tied to my self-definition" written all over it, don't you think?

No, I see Athenian's response as dismissal: She says, "I refuse to even consider your point. It's garbage."

By contrast, an INFP rejection is more like the disagreement Heart and I are having about taking a principled stand. We're maneuvering a bit and testing. If we decide we want to go at it, we'll remain congenial for a while but then we'll finally break out the long knives and really start carving each other up.

Yup. And in Athenian's case, it sounds far more INFPish than INFJish to my ears. Saying stuff like "I hate you and your values", that's typically angry INFP, from what I've experienced.

INFPs will be congenial for 5 or 10 posts, maneuvering with you and congenially trying to convince you of their point of view. Then they finally get disgusted and start screaming at you. Whereas Athenian will get up in your face and dismiss you right at the start, and just keep questioning the issue for 50 posts and refuse to drop it.

Actually, there seems to be a "vibe" about INFP's that makes me feel like they're forcing their ideas on me, and not allowing me to question or disagree. This usually inflames me, although later I find that wasn't actually their intent. I just don't enjoy communicating with them, it always leaves me agitated and confused.

I agree. There seems to be a communication issue between INFPs and INFJs. I really haven't sat down and parsed it, so I can't say what it is exactly.

But FWIW, INFPs at INFP-GC complained about my communication style as well. I'm a bit more "in your face" than most INFPs, I believe.

Exactly! Sweet blessed relief!

Sorry you're not receiving /quite/ as much support as I think you deserve, but I really think it was an awesome post, and your subsequent posts do well to further explain your excellently thought out and excellently illustrated point.

It must take work to write such a long post, but you do it so frequently that perhaps you're practiced. Perhaps you try hard to be concise, but I think you did a good job for the points you were making.

Thanks! Actually, what happens is that I try *not* to write that long post. I try to stay out of the thread for a full day or more, figuring it's none of my business and I don't have the time to get involved; but meantime I'm watching the thread and writing the post in the back of my mind just to see how I would incorporate what's been said.

Finally I can't take it any more and I sit down and write it. But by then it's fully formed in my mind and I can just vomit it out on the page.

(Two hours and counting down. )

I think I'm just going to call in sick. I feel like a 3-day weekend!

 

[Wandering]

I didn't mean to give that impression. I thought he was telling me I had to accept ideas without examining them, and even when they are inconsistent, arbitrary, and contradictory in order to be mature, and I don't agree.

I see.

As an INFJ, there is no way you could accept ideas without examining them. Any new idea is going to be pulled apart by our Fe and Ti (at least) before being (eventually) digested by Ni. So no, you are definitely not asked to accept ideas without examining them.

However, you *are* being encouraged to not dismiss ideas that don't seem to make sense too quickly. As I said in a previous post, DomNi isn't afraid of chaos and contradictions. But AuxFe, TerTi, and Shadow Fi can be, and often are. However, they are supposed to remain *subordinate* to DomNi.

IOW: the drive to keep things clean and neat in your internal library of ideas is not a typical INFJ drive. Typically, INFJs don't have any problem with holding conflicting ideas at the same time, in fact we often thrive on it. We like to organise any incoming data, sure, but once this is done, we typically enjoy having columns upon columns of conflicting data, and trying to make it all work together somehow.

But I'm still not completely sure I actually understand how you process conflicting ideas, so I might be completely off on that one.

I also felt like he was saying that I had no right to disagree or do things differently because that was the right way, and was forcing the idea on me against my will.

He was just presenting the currently most widely accepted view on INFJ functioning. That doesn't in any way mean you have to accept it. In fact, it would be troubling if you accepted it without any resistance.

My attitude is that I can listen to an idea if it's offered to me, explain what parts I agree or disagree with, and they turn around and see what they agree/disagree with, etc.

Just making sure: is there a part in there where you go "I don't understand why on Earth anyone would be thinking that way, so please guide me through your reasoning step by step"?

I have accepted new ideas, realized things I didn't see before, and changed my opinions on things with little pain in this manner, without feeling like I'm violating myself.

I don't know what to say, because the idea that one would be violating themselves by accepting other people's ideas is rather foreign to me.

I didn't feel like FineLine was giving me that option. It felt different with Edahn for some reason, though. And you just now, come to think of it.

Strange. I'm usually the one being told that I'm not leaving people any options, and INFPs are usually the ones making sure that people don't feel pressured. I wonder what's at work here.

 

[Mempy]

By contrast, an INFP rejection is more like the disagreement Heart and I are having about taking a principled stand. We're maneuvering a bit and testing. If we decide we want to go at it, we'll remain congenial for a while but then we'll finally break out the long knives and really start carving each other up.

But by then it's fully formed in my mind and I can just vomit it out on the page.

Oh, the stitch, the stich!

By the way, I do agree that that is often the difference between INFPs and INFJs in disagreements. Love the humor.

Actually, what happens is that I try *not* to write that long post.

I had a feeling that's what you tried.

I think I'm just going to call in sick. I feel like a 3-day weekend!

I have no such luxury. First week of classes and I've ALREADY missed the first day, which puts me behind a little. Oh well! I'll console myself with the thought that you're sleeping in and eating breakfast at two pm.

 

[RDF]

I had a feeling that's what you tried.

A lot of those posts never get written. But my wife's out of town this weekend, which leaves me some free time. Most of my posting occurs when my wife is traveling, which is why I'm active at some times and not at others.

I have no such luxury. First week of classes and I've ALREADY missed the first day, which puts me behind a little. Oh well! I'll console myself with the thought that you're sleeping in and eating breakfast at two pm.

Sorry to hear it! Hope your day isn't too miserable.

[Off to bed.]

 

[Wandering]

No, I see Athenian's response as dismissal: She says, "I refuse to even consider your point. It's garbage."

Which to me is associated with INFPs An INFJ would either:
1- disengage from the conversation and/or keep their opinion to themselves,
2- wait and listen,
3- actively ask "I don't understand, can you explain again",
4- at the very worst, get mad and argue at lengths that the position is somehow morally offensive.

Going straight in your face and saying "that's garbage" is something that I typically see INFPs, not INFJs, doing.

Though of course, I suppose number 4 could be seen that way...

By contrast, an INFP rejection is more like the disagreement Heart and I are having about taking a principled stand. We're maneuvering a bit and testing. If we decide we want to go at it, we'll remain congenial for a while but then we'll finally break out the long knives and really start carving each other up.

Not really my experience, I must say. I've rarely seen people more ready to pick up the carving knives at the first hint of an offense as INFPs can be. You'd have to piss an INFJ off very badly to get them to react that strongly and that fast.

Note: I'm only talking of online discussions. Things would look much different in real life. Maybe that's why we disagree? Are you talking of real life interactions while I'm more focusing on online interactions? If so... I feel stoopid

INFPs will be congenial for 5 or 10 posts, maneuvering with you and congenially trying to convince you of their point of view.

Er, no, that's INFJs I've often been bombed by INFPs after writing just a single post that they saw as somehow wrong. INFJs are far more likely to ask "what did you mean exactly?" while INFPs will often just come out and say "you meant that and I find it disgusting".

Whereas Athenian will get up in your face and dismiss you right at the start, and just keep questioning the issue for 50 posts and refuse to drop it.

The perseverance is typically INFJ, I'll grant you that

 

[Wandering]

What's with all this talk of people going to bed ?? It's lunch time here !!

 

[Nadir]

Ya rly Wandering! I'm having exactly that, lol.

 

[RDF]

Which to me is associated with INFPs An INFJ would either:
1- disengage from the conversation and/or keep their opinion to themselves,
2- wait and listen,
3- actively ask "I don't understand, can you explain again",
4- at the very worst, get mad and argue at lengths that the position is somehow morally offensive.

Going straight in your face and saying "that's garbage" is something that I typically see INFPs, not INFJs, doing.

Though of course, I suppose number 4 could be seen that way...


Not really my experience, I must say. I've rarely seen people more ready to pick up the carving knives at the first hint of an offense as INFPs can be. You'd have to piss an INFJ off very badly to get them to react that strongly and that fast.

Note: I'm only talking of online discussions. Things would look much different in real life. Maybe that's why we disagree? Are you talking of real life interactions while I'm more focusing on online interactions? If so... I feel stoopid

Hmmm... The online experience is tricky. You've been posting on INFP-GC where there are a lot of young INFPs who lose it pretty quick. And I've been speaking specifically of Athenian, who is young and expresses opposition right at the first post (albeit in pretty much a rational tone).

In real life among my older acquaintances, I agree. Both types will take their time before getting overly ferocious on the issues.

It's probably a question of perception. For example, INFPs express themselves via Ne and will think of themselves as staying open-minded on an issue and playing with it for a while before getting rigid about it. But INFJs may register the INFP's Fi opposition in hiding (I think INFJs are good at sensing a hidden agenda) and sense opposition before the INFP intends to actually express opposition.

Likewise, INFJs express themselves via Fe and will think of themselves as staying open-minded on an issue out of politeness and playing with it for a while before pushing hard on it. But as an INFP, I tend to be kind of dismissive of Fe; I see it as the judging function that it is (because I see my own Fi as a rigid function); so I ignore the politeness aspect and see it as opposition practically from the start--especially in retrospect, once the INFJ keeps pushing the issue.

IOW, both parties may think they're projecting an open-minded stance, but they're being read by the other party as taking a rigid stance practically from the start. Hence Athenian's defensiveness at my post, and my own reading of Athenian's posts as inevitably dismissive.

Maybe that explains some of the communication difficulty. And also this outlook still could support my original contention that Fi and Fe work similarly but with a different "feel." But that "feel" feels very differently to INFPs and INFJs.

Or something like that. I think I'm getting tired.

 

[RDF]

What's with all this talk of people going to bed ?? It's lunch time here !!

Ya rly Wandering! I'm having exactly that, lol.

The U.S. crowd on the East Coast should be waking up soon. I'll let you guys take it up with them.

 

[Wandering]

It's probably a question of perception. For example, INFPs express themselves via Ne and will think of themselves as staying open-minded on an issue and playing with it for a while before getting rigid about it. But INFJs may register the INFP's Fi opposition in hiding (I think INFJs are good at sensing a hidden agenda) and sense opposition before the INFP intends to actually express opposition.

Likewise, INFJs express themselves via Fe and will think of themselves as staying open-minded on an issue out of politeness and playing with it for a while before pushing hard on it. But as an INFP, I tend to be kind of dismissive of Fe; I see it as the judging function that it is (because I see my own Fi as a rigid function); so I ignore the politeness aspect and see it as opposition practically from the start--especially in retrospect, once the INFJ keeps pushing the issue.

IOW, both parties may think they're projecting an open-minded stance, but they're being read by the other party as taking a rigid stance practically from the start.

Very good points! I totally see that happening all the time, now that you mention it.

 

[Carebear]

Also, the INFPs you talk about Wandering seem to be using stunted Ne. (Thanks for the terms and ideas, FL. Really an eye opener once again.) By intuiting that a line of thought might at some point in the future threaten Fi, they use the stunted Ne to immediately tell Fi that the possible future slight has already happened. Mature Ne would instead try to get to the bottom of what the other person seems to be expressing in order to let Fi get new understanding and challenge it to mature and grow.

Edit: Bah, I suddenly remembered FL had already covered this as well I think.

 

[Mempy]

The U.S. crowd on the East Coast should be waking up soon. I'll let you guys take it up with them.

Or maybe they never actually went to bed.

But don't take it up with me; I'm tired and have a long-ish day ahead of me! *rubs face*

Good insight, FL, again. When Wandering disagreed, I was going to suggest that it may not be a difference between INFPs and INFJs, but rather a difference between mature and immature people of both types. I do notice that many INFPs and INFJs alike can point-blank disagree and immediately get aggressive in discussions, turning them into conflicts with resentful feelings. They're the ones not objectively evaluating the situation, not taking in or respecting the other person's opinion, and simply trying to drive a point home, i.e. immature arguers. You took it one step further by realizing that, uh (here's where my tiredness kicks in), both types might see each other's opposition while the person is still thinking they're showing an open-minded disposition. Good insight! I think that's a great and likely guess.

Also, I just wanted to use this smiley:

 

[RDF]

Very good points! I totally see that happening all the time, now that you mention it.

Good! An INFJ and an INFP in agreement!

By the way, Wandering, you're acting as an honest broker between Athenian and me. More specifically:

I saw Athenian being dismissive toward my contribution, which is fine. She has to live her own life, and I'm not looking to tell her how to do it. Edahn had already given her the Fe treatment; I was just Ne-ing the issue for the fun of it.

But then you interpreted some of what I said into Fe for Athenian, which told me that you're hearing me. When you raised some of your own objections to my post concerning Fe vs Fi, I put my Ne to work to hear you in return and incorporate your concerns (as opposed to using my Ne merely to fence with you or ignore your concerns).

IOW, it hadn't occurred to me previously that INFJs might see INFPs as being that quick to go into opposition. But seeing that you understood what I said to Athenian, I trusted your opinion of INFPs in turn.

I think this gets back to the OP and the subject of "Invisible threads that change how actions are judged." If no one listens and no one trusts what the others are saying, then we all just end up talking past each other. But if one or two people can step outside their natural framework and listen to what others are saying, a little loop of trust gets generated. We can suddenly hear each others' concerns, trust them to be real, and try to find a compromise vision that will at least attempt to incorporate everyone's concerns.

An honest broker can accomplish a lot. That's where the "invisible threads" from the OP get created. But the threads will remain invisible to individuals who insist only on their own views. The threads only become visible when each person trusts and incorporates the views of others.

Also, the INFPs you talk about Wandering seem to be using stunted Ne. (Thanks for the terms and ideas, FL. Really an eye opener once again.) By intuiting that a line of thought might at some point in the future threaten Fi, they use the stunted Ne to immediately tell Fi that the possible future slight has already happened. Mature Ne would instead try to get to the bottom of what the other person seems to be expressing in order to let Fi get new understanding and challenge it to mature and grow.

Yes, that describes it well. Immature use of the Auxiliary is often about projecting motives and fears onto others. Mature use is about holding off on judgment and simply trying to hear what was said without worrying about motives or agendas.

If an "honest broker" appears in a conversation and uses their functions maturely, it becomes that much easier for others to do the same.

Edit: Bah, I suddenly remembered FL had already covered this as well I think.

Not necessarily. I don't know anymore. :zzz:

 

[RDF]

Or maybe they never actually went to bed.

But don't take it up with me; I'm tired and have a long-ish day ahead of me! *rubs face*

Good insight, FL, again. When Wandering disagreed, I was going to suggest that it may not be a difference between INFPs and INFJs, but rather a difference between mature and immature people of both types. I do notice that many INFPs and INFJs alike can point-blank disagree and immediately get aggressive in discussions, turning them into conflicts with resentful feelings. But you took it one step further by realizing that, uh (here's where my tiredness kicks in), both types might see each other's opposition while the person is still thinking they're showing an open-minded disposition, especially when the people concerned are more mature and more well-versed in disagreement. Good insight! I think that's a great and likely guess.

Also, I just wanted to use this smiley:

Thanks, Mempy. But as I said in the previous post, Wandering gets a lot of the credit too. Initially I was just Ne-ing without too much concern for Athenian's feelings, and Athenian wasn't too happy with that. It was Wandering's intervention that turned things in a positive direction and kicked off a more positive discussion. (Credit to Edahn, too, who was making good headway before I jumped in.)

Good luck with your day!

 

[Mempy]

Thank you! And I agree, many voices contributed to make this a positive discussion, including Edahn, Wandering, and Carebear.

(Off to school! Bye! )

 

[Wandering]

Good! An INFJ and an INFP in agreement!

Meh

By the way, Wandering, you're acting as an honest broker between Athenian and me.

From what I understand of what you mean by "honest broker", I'd say I'm typically acting my type INFJs thrive on helping people reach mutual understanding.

IOW, it hadn't occurred to me previously that INFJs might see INFPs as being that quick to go into opposition. But seeing that you understood what I said to Athenian, I trusted your opinion of INFPs in turn.

Don't trust it too much... I don't

I think this gets back to the OP and the subject of "Invisible threads that change how actions are judged." If no one listens and no one trusts what the others are saying, then we all just end up talking past each other.

It can get even worse than that. Sometimes people are listening and people are trusting, but because they speak such different languages and come from such different places, it still doesn't work. That's the main source of attraction in typology for me: understanding how people can be genuinely different one from the other, how they can honestly be acting and thinking in different ways, how, in short, different doesn't have to be wrong.

 

[Totenkindly]

The U.S. crowd on the East Coast should be waking up soon. I'll let you guys take it up with them.

I don't really have anything more to contribute, I'm just enjoying reading everyone's ideas. Some very insightful comments about Fi/Fe differences and comparisons between INFP/INFJ types... as well as exploration of what happens when people give more credence to their secondary rather than their primary.

So thank you all for that, the five stars I gave this thread yesterday were definitely accurate.

And I'm also figuring everyone needs some time to digest the ideas they've heard.

 

[Athenian200]

If you're interested, here's how I perceived FineLine's first statement (and many other INFP's):

"What I'm saying is the only right way. If you disagree with me, I'll force you to agree with me. What you feel doesn't matter, because my opinion is the only truth, and thus I can force you."

It's a bit like this. It's like opening up the door, and meeting a salesman who shoves a product in my face and tersely says, "Buy this." This sort of bugs me and I say, "Why should I?" Instead of trying to sell it to me, they just say "Because it's the best, it's all you need. Now buy it, or I'll just beat you up and take the money anyway."

Needless to say, this leaves me feeling defensive.

I don't really understand why I perceive it this way.

In contrast, here's how I often perceive xNTP's when discussing an idea (if it doesn't touch on anything intense or something):

"I'm not 100% sure that I'm right, but I'd like you to consider that I might be. It seems like a positive thing to me, although you may not agree. In fact, you're welcome to tell me exactly what you think of this and explain why you think it."

In this situation, it's a bit different. I open the door to a salesman who says, "Hello, there. I sell <name of product>. Can I interest you in buying it?" Curious, I ask, "What does it do?" They respond, "Why, what does it do? What doesn't it do is the better question. But here, let me give you a demonstration. May I come in?" Then I invite them in, and they look around my house for something that their product can help with. They point something out and say, "Look at this <thing>, it doesn't work well at all. But watch how much better it works when I apply <name of product> to the same situation." Then they give a demonstration, and I'm impressed. And then I say, "Very impressive, but I've seen very similar products in stores. Why should I buy this from you?" They respond, "Ah, skepticism. You are indeed a shrewd buyer. They are quite similar, although mine is better because of <unique quality>. Tell you what, I normally sell this for <price>, but for a shrewd buyer like you, I'll sell it for <half price>. What do you think? I know several people who would pay almost any price for such a useful product. Do you really want to pass this up?" Needless to say, I buy the product.

The strange thing is, I often even perceive someone like, say, BlueWing as being the second salesman rather than the first one.

 

[Nadir]

Before someone jumps in with a typology-based response which will probably have no use whatsoever, (sorry, but I'm right.) let me just say that the above response by athenian really dovetails with my opinion of the MBTI being a fairly useless tool that has the potential to generate more predisposition than it can get rid of, courtesy of its seperatist tendencies. We should all strive to get rid of its self-limiting influence and burn all the MBTI books we might potentially have. Like I've said, I'm right.

Thanks!

PS: Humor.

Stealthy edit after Wandering posted: Yay, my hunch was right!

 

[Wandering]

If you're interested, here's how I perceived FineLine's first statement (and many other INFP's):

In contrast, here's how I often perceive xNTP's when discussing an idea (if it doesn't touch on anything intense or something):

Very interesting, considering that NTPs and NFPs have the same main Extraverted function (Ne). So it sounds like you are reacting to the Introverted functions (Fi vs Ti), and you find Ti less "forceful" than Fi. That's understandable, since Ti is an "impersonal" function, while Fi is very "personal". And of course Ti is among an INFJ's primary functions, while Fi is a Shadow one. So it's all kind of logical in a way.

The strange thing is, I often even perceive someone like, say, BlueWing as being the second salesman rather than the first one.

Now, *this* I truly don't understand