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Understanding invisible threads that change how actions are judged.

aeon

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It's almost like there are three levels, and I'm on the second one. First, there are people who only see rules that have to be obeyed, and don't understand the relationship between these rules, or how they form a coherent system. Second, there are people like me, who comprehend that there are rules, and understand the connections/threads between them within that particular system itself, and have an idea of why the system is desirable, but don't understand how things that aren't technically part of the system connect to and modify parts of it. Finally, there are people who can see several systems as part of an entirety, and comprehend how all of them affect one another, and what is desirable or undesirable on a higher level.

It sounds like a recapitulation of Kohlberg's levels of moral awareness.


cheers.
Ian
 

Athenian200

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Okay then. I'm sorry I said I hated everyone. That's not true, I just hate your ideas and pity you for having them, because they are horrible.

We are coming from places that we cannot reach each other, so let's forget about this thread and talk about something else.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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Very well, then. The values I am disgusted by are:

1. Courage - How pathetic do you have to be to have courage? It's just stupid to take risks so that people will admire that, or out of some screwed up sense that you owe people something. It is so pathetic and disgusting to need like that, and to do something so absurd, meaningless, and predictable to fulfill it. You should always flee danger unless it corners you, and then do everything you can against it no matter how underhanded. It's foolish to be bound by something as absurd as a sense of courage.

Doing things to gain the acceptance of others IS stupid, you're right. But that's not what courage is, and it's not why I admire it. Courage is taking a risk when there's a payoff. Being yourself in spite of the possibility takes courage. You don't do it for others, you do it for your own happiness, and you can't deny the value of your happiness. All yours posts suggest you are searching for safety and peace of mind.

2. Trust - This basically the same as saying, "let people screw you over." If you trust people, they will screw you over. It's not even a matter of "if," but "when." They would be foolish not to do so if they could get away with it, in fact. You should always have a back-up plan in case they betray you, so that they can't do what ever they want with you. The easiest is to make sure that you never trust anyone unless you have something to use against them if they betray you. That will deter them. There is no trust, it's only an idea used to trick people. It doesn't do anything.

It's kinda obvious that there's a thread of paranoia in your posts, and I think it has, to a certain degree, clouded your reasoning. What you're overlooking here, again, is the benefit to be had by trusting another person. You've opened yourself to us on this forum by coming to trust us enough that we won't seek you out to punish you in any real way. By opening up, you've made friends and continued to dig into who you are. Trust, very much connected to courage, allows relationships to flourish which is one source of peace of mind.

3. Acceptance, and even building upon the disgusting nature of things as they are, accepting it as valid, even embracing it - This is the most horrifying of all. You look on all this, seeing how disgusting and miserable it is, and you dare to align yourself with that awfulness, praise it as positive regardless of it's voidness of everything that is good or right, you just praise the arbitrary chaotic mess, and speak of it's "necessity," completely ignoring everything wrong with it. You demand people to live in it, you even implore them to love it as you do.

I agree 100%. Forcing people to accept things is ridiculous and dishonest. Even saying "I will accept things today" implies that you want to change them. But, there's still wisdom in doing this genuinely. Accepting yourself on a very deep way can help alleviate a lot of the stress we put ourselves through on account of constantly seeking or fighting change, whether it be our environments or our minds. This isn't something you can really appreciate unless you've experienced it, and it isn't something you can really imagine either. It's a major shift in being that I've had the pleasure to experience on a few occasions.
 

spirilis

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A recent argument brought this idea on about myself and how I perceive things. I really don't get how the rest of you make decisions. There are plenty of people who think like I do that I encounter regularly, but there are also people (especially here) who make decisions based on something I can't even see.

It seems to be something like this. I assess each action independently against a set of rules I've developed or that have been handed to me, as well as against all the consequences that I'm aware could exist for that action. So when I act, that's what I take into account.

But many of the rest of you think in a way that I can't even relate to. You seem to see something that I can't see, by which a person's collective actions and your perception of their nature modify the consequences of an individual action. It's as if you see some kind of invisible "thread" linking all these actions together in a particular way, and from it you calculate what a person's intent is, whether their action is good or bad, what effect it had, and what is justified regarding the collective nature of all of that information I don't even see or process.

The problem is, I don't even see that "thread." So this is very frightening to me because I feel like things are being judged by something that I can't even comprehend. And if I can't comprehend what I am being judged by, how can I hope to avoid negative consequences for my actions? How can I even know if I'm doing something wrong? Do I just have to hope other people will tell me before I make them too angry, and then try to follow their prescriptions without even understanding them? That seems to be the only way to live... just try to avoid doing anything that might irritate someone, never trust them if there's even the slightest chance they could use it against you, and hope you remember all of their preferences so that you don't say anything that makes them mad. I won't enjoy living that way all of the time (although it would be fine for a while), but I don't really see an alternative. :(

So basically, I want to know if someone can explain how you draw these threads between actions, and if there's a consistent pattern by which I can predict which threads are likely to be drawn between actions. Or is it something you just have to "get," and you're out of luck if you don't get it?

I am tempted to start reading this thread from the beginning because it sounds interesting and heated, but I want to add my virgin perspective before absorbing all the posts-

1. I know what you mean by 'invisible threads'. I've used a similar analogy in the past to describe Ne, which is where I think it comes from--different events (objects, actions, etc) have some kind of intrinsic linkage between one another. The analogy I'd used before was that an Ne world is like a bunch of nodes with pipes connecting between them, the "nodes" being discrete concepts or objects, the "pipes" representing the nature by which nodes relate to one another. Not sure if this is an accurate analogy, but from my perspective it seems to make sense.

2. "You seem to see something that I can't see, by which a person's collective actions and your perception of their nature modify the consequences of an individual action" -- I see this as something like a continual "keeping score" process, whereby each action an individual does changes some invisible scoreboard my brain maintains.

To approach this from another standpoint, consider this:

At any point in time, while observing or considering the state of something or someone, we have a nearly infinite montage of possibilities of what discrete sequences of events could happen next. Once an action is observed, however, you can immediately discount all possibilities that do NOT include this action happening first--thus, the scope of possible patterns one's mind continually seeks to predict the future (probably for the purpose of preparing oneself, to prepare for adapting to what could change) is narrowed. The more time goes on, and the more you know about what a person is doing and what they've done in the past, the more your brain draws a pattern of what they're most likely to do later. These patterns are learned as a matter of life experience. As you learn more and more patterns, you get these "a-ha, I bet I know what happens next" revelations more frequently until they're not even special to you anymore, just a natural fact of life. But that database of patterns is appended by life experience.
 

Athenian200

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Doing things to gain the acceptance of others IS stupid, you're right. But that's not what courage is, and it's not why I admire it. Courage is taking a risk when there's a payoff. Being yourself in spite of the possibility takes courage. You don't do it for others, you do it for your own happiness, and you can't deny the value of your happiness. All yours posts suggest you are searching for safety and peace of mind.

I find it hard to admire courage, though. It really does seem like it's harmful. Why is it better to take risks and hurt people to get what you want? I don't think it is. I just don't see aggressively going after something you want without considering the consequences to be a positive thing worthy of praise, just because it succeeded.
It's kinda obvious that there's a thread of paranoia in your posts, and I think it has, to a certain degree, clouded your reasoning. What you're overlooking here, again, is the benefit to be had by trusting another person. You've opened yourself to us on this forum by coming to trust us enough that we won't seek you out to punish you in any real way. By opening up, you've made friends and continued to dig into who you are. Trust, very much connected to courage, allows relationships to flourish which is one source of peace of mind.

You say I've trusted you and people imply I've made myself vulnerable, but I don't understand how. I'm not in a situation where you could physically harm me, be forced to associate with you against my will, or even be financially ruined by you. What kind of trust are you talking about? Nothing bad could happen.

I also think that there is no reason to make yourself more vulnerable to people than necessary, or attempting to minimize that vulnerability. Trust isn't a good reason for not minimizing vulnerability.
I agree 100%. Forcing people to accept things is ridiculous and dishonest. Even saying "I will accept things today" implies that you want to change them. But, there's still wisdom in doing this genuinely. Accepting yourself on a very deep way can help alleviate a lot of the stress we put ourselves through on account of constantly seeking or fighting change, whether it be our environments or our minds. This isn't something you can really appreciate unless you've experienced it, and it isn't something you can really imagine either. It's a major shift in being that I've had the pleasure to experience on a few occasions.

What I find disgusting is taking the inconsistent and tasteless nature of how people are, and acting as if it's automatically the right way because it's here. That may be how things are, but I don't see any reason to see the way things are as good/justified. I'm just not willing to consider the arbitrary and chaotic mess of human nature to be good and desirable, not matter how much people insist that it is. I never will. That isn't the same as not acknowledging it's existence, though, which is what people seem to think I'm doing. I will take any available course of action that results in my well-being when cornered, you can count on that. But otherwise, I'll attempt to follow rules as closely as possible.
 

heart

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I find it hard to admire courage, though. It really does seem like it's harmful. Why is it better to take risks and hurt people to get what you want? I don't think it is. I just don't see aggressively going after something you want without considering the consequences to be a positive thing worthy of praise, just because it succeeded.

What's the downside if someone makes a positive gain in the end for standing up? Who is to say the consequenses are not considered? Maybe they did take the consequenses into account and thought they were worth the price.
 

disregard

mrs
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Why does it have to be you against the world? What fills you with such animosity? All of your hatred seems to stem from self-loathing. Instead of looking to change the world via preaching, look inward. It might be just as hard to change the world as it is to come to terms with who you really are and why you do the things you do, but the latter is the only path that will give you a lasting sense of self-esteem that comes from something real and meaningful.
 

Tallulah

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I find it hard to admire courage, though. It really does seem like it's harmful. Why is it better to take risks and hurt people to get what you want? I don't think it is. I just don't see aggressively going after something you want without considering the consequences to be a positive thing worthy of praise, just because it succeeded.

The fallacy is that you are just imagining the consequences. In order to find out the real consequences, you must risk. There are any number of things that can happen. Life can surprise you. You might be imagining negative consequences where there are none. You cannot assume that your projections are correct. That's why you have to take a chance. That's courage. No one here is saying to jump in front of a bus because it's courageous and it might not kill you. You take risks for the things that you want that are important to you. You take risks in relationships or you put in your resume for the job you want, even though there are others you think might have a better chance. Life rewards people who are courageous, even though there may be setbacks and obstacles.


You say I've trusted you and people imply I've made myself vulnerable, but I don't understand how. I'm not in a situation where you could physically harm me, be forced to associate with you against my will, or even be financially ruined by you. What kind of trust are you talking about? Nothing bad could happen.

I also think that there is no reason to make yourself more vulnerable to people than necessary, or attempting to minimize that vulnerability. Trust isn't a good reason for not minimizing vulnerability.

This makes me really think you don't know yourself very well, and it really highlights the reason that you NEED to open yourself to other viewpoints. You take things so literally that it really highlights the lack of real-world experience. You usually just continually argue the same points instead of trying to understand, but in this thread, you've demonstrated (positive) vulnerability by exposing your own perceived gaps in logic, and you've invited others to help you see. No, we can't kill you or hurt you physically, but you've opened yourself up to us by not just putting on the mask of impenetrability. That is a really positive thing, even though you don't seem to be aware that you did it. As the thread goes on, however, you're putting the wall back up. Ah, well.

What I find disgusting is taking the inconsistent and tasteless nature of how people are, and acting as if it's automatically the right way because it's here. That may be how things are, but I don't see any reason to see the way things are as good/justified. I'm just not willing to consider the arbitrary and chaotic mess of human nature to be good and desirable, not matter how much people insist that it is. I never will. That isn't the same as not acknowledging it's existence, though, which is what people seem to think I'm doing. I will take any available course of action that results in my well-being when cornered, you can count on that. But otherwise, I'll attempt to follow rules as closely as possible.

You forget that people make the rules in the first place. Fallible, imperfect people. People who make mistakes and break their own rules from time to time. People who use their OWN JUDGEMENT to determine what's best for society and their fellow men. It's ironic that you cling to these rules as if they were separate from the people who made them.

At no point in the history of the world have there been perfect people living out a Utopian society where everyone obeyed every rule, all the time. There have been a few societies where rules were enforced to a terrible, damaging degree, and I don't think any sane person wants to return to that "ideal."

You can continue to live the way you are, but gosh, it really pains me to know that that's what you're choosing for yourself. You're making life so much harder than it has to be.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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I find it hard to admire courage, though. It really does seem like it's harmful. Why is it better to take risks and hurt people to get what you want? I don't think it is. I just don't see aggressively going after something you want without considering the consequences to be a positive thing worthy of praise, just because it succeeded.

Of course you should consider the consequences! Courage is not the end. It's a means to an end, and it's always wise to calculate whether that end is beneficial of detrimental. Why do you assume people will get hurt? I don't follow your logic.

Take an end like peace of mind. We can agree that peace of mind is a positive end that tends to benefit both the person and his social circle in most cases, as it tends to come with empathy and compassion. Good. If you examine your life, you may find that the times that bring you peace are when you can act like yourself without worrying about how you're acting. If you disagree, tell me. If you agree, then consider what worrying is -- a fear that something bad will happen. When it comes to being yourself, it's a fear that something bad will happen when you let down your guard. You lose control and open the door to all sorts of things. It takes courage to say "you know what? I think I'll be okay even if all these bad things happen to me." Who's getting hurt here?

You say I've trusted you and people imply I've made myself vulnerable, but I don't understand how. I'm not in a situation where you could physically harm me, be forced to associate with you against my will, or even be financially ruined by you. What kind of trust are you talking about? Nothing bad could happen.

Okay, fair point. However, you can still see the benefit of trust. In the case of MBTIc, you've been able to open up because you feel protected on account of your distance and anonymity. When you're close-up and vulnerable, trust is what gives you that same space to open up, explore, and befriend others. Point being that there's value in trust.

I also think that there is no reason to make yourself more vulnerable to people than necessary, or attempting to minimize that vulnerability. Trust isn't a good reason for not minimizing vulnerability.

Trust isn't the reason, it's the tool. I would tend to agree that it doesn't make much sense to make yourself more vulnerable than is necessary, but what is necessary, and what are you trying to accomplish? If it's real friendship that you seek (and I think you probably do) then vulnerability is a necessary element. By vulnerability, I don't mean you expose your wounds. I simply mean that you let down your guard and take the risk of being yourself and being castigated for that.

What I find disgusting is taking the inconsistent and tasteless nature of how people are, and acting as if it's automatically the right way because it's here. That may be how things are, but I don't see any reason to see the way things are as good/justified. I'm just not willing to consider the arbitrary and chaotic mess of human nature to be good and desirable, not matter how much people insist that it is. I never will. That isn't the same as not acknowledging it's existence, though, which is what people seem to think I'm doing. I will take any available course of action that results in my well-being when cornered, you can count on that. But otherwise, I'll attempt to follow rules as closely as possible.

Eh. I would agree with you that considering what is here to be "good" is fallacious thinking. With that said, I don't think acceptance means seeing things as justified or good. It simply means seeing it. Period. You're still stuck in value judgments, and acceptance refrains from those judgments. As soon as you make a judgment, even calling something "good," you're already implying the non-acceptance of bad. Same goes for "justified." I would argue that this is shallow acceptance, or not acceptance at all.
 

Athenian200

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Of course you should consider the consequences! Courage is not the end. It's a means to an end, and it's always wise to calculate whether that end is beneficial of detrimental. Why do you assume people will get hurt? I don't follow your logic.

Take an end like peace of mind. We can agree that peace of mind is a positive end that tends to benefit both the person and his social circle in most cases, as it tends to come with empathy and compassion. Good. If you examine your life, you may find that the times that bring you peace are when you can act like yourself without worrying about how you're acting. If you disagree, tell me. If you agree, then consider what worrying is -- a fear that something bad will happen. When it comes to being yourself, it's a fear that something bad will happen when you let down your guard. You lose control and open the door to all sorts of things. It takes courage to say "you know what? I think I'll be okay even if all these bad things happen to me." Who's getting hurt here?

Oh. Well, I was assuming people would get hurt because I usually hear the word "courage" used by people as an excuse for accepting stupid/dangerous dares, or as the reason people in the Old West used to stay in town, stand in the street, and get shot, rather than sneak away or do something their opponent didn't expect in order to win. I never really associated it with anything else. Acting like yourself doesn't really involve courage, because the only thing that could happen is that people could reject you socially/personally (in fact, depending on how likable yourself happens to be, even that might not happen). It would still be difficult for them to kill you, force you to associate with them against your will, or financially ruin you. And this is because of laws, which are enforced in a way that doesn't (usually) depend on people liking you. The fear I had was the implication that there are no laws enforced in ways that don't depend on people liking you, which would mean I had to depend on making people like me and creativity (not something I want expected of me regularly) to avoid the three things I mentioned.
Trust isn't the reason, it's the tool. I would tend to agree that it doesn't make much sense to make yourself more vulnerable than is necessary, but what is necessary, and what are you trying to accomplish? If it's real friendship that you seek (and I think you probably do) then vulnerability is a necessary element. By vulnerability, I don't mean you expose your wounds. I simply mean that you let down your guard and take the risk of being yourself and being castigated for that.

There's that idea again, being yourself. Where does that come in? I thought trust was about being vulnerable or something. When I think of being vulnerable, I usually think of putting yourself at risk of physical harm, financial ruin, or being forced to associate with someone against your will. I haven't really met people who expect me to make myself vulnerable to them in those ways. Castigation can't really harm me, unless there really are no laws that don't depend on people liking me, in which case it could literally be fatal. You know, lynching? You are beginning to see why I think laws that aren't subjectively interpreted are necessary, right?
Eh. I would agree with you that considering what is here to be "good" is fallacious thinking. With that said, I don't think acceptance means seeing things as justified or good. It simply means seeing it. Period. You're still stuck in value judgments, and acceptance refrains from those judgments. As soon as you make a judgment, even calling something "good," you're already implying the non-acceptance of bad. Same goes for "justified." I would argue that this is shallow acceptance, or not acceptance at all.

I don't know how to see something without judging it. It's almost as if I have to judge something as good or bad just to be aware of it. I'm aware of things I consider bad, however. I usually only discuss goals, it's kind of foreign to me to discuss how something is done, rather than what should be done. Why is it impossible to judge something as bad, but then tolerate it's existence grudgingly? Doesn't that basically have the same result as acceptance, except that with the first one, you'd make things better if you had the chance, but with the latter, you'd just not care one way or the other?
 

disregard

mrs
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The fear I had was the implication that there are no laws enforced in ways that don't depend on people liking you, which would mean I had to depend on making people like me and creativity (not something I want expected of me regularly) to avoid the three things I mentioned.

If you are referring to this forum (I am not sure because you are being very vague), it has already been stated that it is action and not character that cause someone to be officially punished; thus, you don't have to worry about not being liked.
 

heart

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Oh. Well, I was assuming people would get hurt because I usually hear the word "courage" used by people as an excuse for accepting stupid/dangerous dares, or as the reason people in the Old West used to stay in town, stand in the street, and get shot, rather than sneak away or do something their opponent didn't expect in order to win. I never really associated it with anything else.

The movie High Noon was about a valid kind of courage. The character was not foolhearty, he stood up for what was right. For himself, while no one else would.

Husband reminds me that Firecreek was also about this topic and a better movie. He is right!
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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There's that idea again, being yourself. Where does that come in? I thought trust was about being vulnerable or something. When I think of being vulnerable, I usually think of putting yourself at risk of physical harm, financial ruin, or being forced to associate with someone against your will. I haven't really met people who expect me to make myself vulnerable to them in those ways. Castigation can't really harm me, unless there really are no laws that don't depend on people liking me, in which case it could literally be fatal. You know, lynching? You are beginning to see why I think laws that aren't subjectively interpreted are necessary, right?

I think so. Let me try and rephrase it and you tell me if I'm right. Your fear isn't social/emotional punishment but financial/physical. Your plan, all along, was to rely on following the rules to ensure that you'd be safe. However, you're now questioning the value of that strategy, as you consider whether the rules are really based on subjective liking rather than objective factors. For people that can ingratiate others, that's not a problem, but you're concerned that you're not able to ingratiate others in that way. Right?

I don't know how to see something without judging it. It's almost as if I have to judge something as good or bad just to be aware of it. I'm aware of things I consider bad, however. I usually only discuss goals, it's kind of foreign to me to discuss how something is done, rather than what should be done.

I think it takes a lot of practice. A lot. Some people claim to be accepting of things when they're really just faking. In that case, it's obvious that they're not accepting their own limitations, thus faking. Some people meditate, some exercise, some volunteer, some do art, some just play and act silly, some go to therapy. They're all different techniques for calming the mind down and trying to experience things, including yourself, without criticism and without assigning "values" (positive or negative). Is there anything that makes you feel peaceful and fluid?

Why is it impossible to judge something as bad, but then tolerate it's existence grudgingly? Doesn't that basically have the same result as acceptance, except that with the first one, you'd make things better if you had the chance, but with the latter, you'd just not care one way or the other?

I don't know. Good question. How do you feel after you've come to tolerate? Is your mind at ease or are you thinking when's this sunnuvabitch going to stop talking? when's this sunnuvabitch going to stop talking? when's this sunnuvabitch going to stop talking?
 

Athenian200

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If you are referring to this forum (I am not sure because you are being very vague), it has already been stated that it is action and not character that cause someone to be officially punished; thus, you don't have to worry about not being liked.

I mean in real life, too, actually. Legal system, everything.

I think so. Let me try and rephrase it and you tell me if I'm right. Your fear isn't social/emotional punishment but financial/physical. Your plan, all along, was to rely on following the rules to ensure that you'd be safe. However, you're now questioning the value of that strategy, as you consider whether the rules are really based on subjective liking rather than objective factors. For people that can ingratiate others, that's not a problem, but you're concerned that you're not able to ingratiate others in that way. Right?

That's pretty much it. I don't think I should have to live in such a way that I can only be safe if people like me. That puts undue strain on me, and would indeed mean I couldn't afford to be myself. It would literally mean I had to do what other people wanted all the time just to avoid being lynched, because there would be nothing else to which I could appeal if they disliked me for some reason. But if we do have laws that aren't subjectively enforced, then this isn't a problem.


I think it takes a lot of practice. A lot. Some people claim to be accepting of things when they're really just faking. In that case, it's obvious that they're not accepting their own limitations, thus faking. Some people meditate, some exercise, some volunteer, some do art, some just play and act silly, some go to therapy. They're all different techniques for calming the mind down and trying to experience things, including yourself, without criticism and without assigning "values" (positive or negative). Is there anything that makes you feel peaceful and fluid?

Well, a lot of things make me feel peaceful... sometimes just lying down and imagining a perfect situation can do that. It can happen when I'm learning something as well. That doesn't really have to do with acceptance, although it makes me serene.

But what I don't get is how I can know what something is, without examining it or applying judgment to some degree. If I stop judging things around me, I just zone out and start daydreaming about things I already know.
I don't know. Good question. How do you feel after you've come to tolerate? Is your mind at ease or are you thinking when's this sunnuvabitch going to stop talking? when's this sunnuvabitch going to stop talking? when's this sunnuvabitch going to stop talking?

Well, when I first start to tolerate, I do think "when will they shut up?" But after a while, I begin to just ignore them when they start talking about that subject, because I already know I disagree with them, and try to change it as soon as possible. Eventually I'm just calm when they start talking about that issue, because I'm not paying attention to them.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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That's pretty much it. I don't think I should have to live in such a way that I can only be safe if people like me. That puts undue strain on me, and would indeed mean I couldn't afford to be myself. It would literally mean I had to do what other people wanted all the time just to avoid being lynched, because there would be nothing else to which I could appeal if they disliked me for some reason. But if we do have laws that aren't subjectively enforced, then this isn't a problem.

I don't think you have anything to worry about. Subjectivity might play some role in the administration of justice, but it's role is attenuated thanks to a legal system that emphasizes objectivity. But even if there is subjectivity in our system, I don't think it'll affect you (harm you) on the level and to the degree you're worried about.

I still stand by my original advice to you, to simply try to be as genuine as you can when you talk to people and to listen as best you can. Nothing too special or mystical, just attention. I think it would really benefit you as well as take care of your concerns.

Well, a lot of things make me feel peaceful... sometimes just lying down and imagining a perfect situation can do that. It can happen when I'm learning something as well. That doesn't really have to do with acceptance, although it makes me serene.

I would propose that the common theme in both these activities is getting your mind off your worrying, that is, off your thinking and off your habit of assessing and evaluating the data streams that constitute your mind. In the first method, you alleviate your worrying by pretending like you've got nothing to worry about. In the second, you focus your mind on something else, sharply. Acceptance is a lot like the first method. Instead of thinking "I have this, so I don't have to worry," you think "I don't care if I have this, so I don't have to worry." So to that extent, I'd say you're already practicing something a lot like acceptance.

But what I don't get is how I can know what something is, without examining it or applying judgment to some degree. If I stop judging things around me, I just zone out and start daydreaming about things I already know.

Have you ever tried meditating? This is exactly what happens to n00b meditators. It still happens to me when I try and sit without letting my mind wander and judge everything, including the quality of my meditation. Practice. :nerd:

Well, when I first start to tolerate, I do think "when will they shut up?" But after a while, I begin to just ignore them when they start talking about that subject, because I already know I disagree with them, and try to change it as soon as possible. Eventually I'm just calm when they start talking about that issue, because I'm not paying attention to them.

"Is acceptance the same as judgment+toleration?"

Are you really tolerating, or are you just withdrawing ("ignoring") and avoiding ("changing the subject")? I think there's a difference. When I think of tolerating something, like my anxiety, I think of confronting it, allowing it to be there, and connecting to it. Ultimately, it's a process of befriending. Withdrawing and escaping is more the opposite and the thing that tends to get me in more trouble. It sounds like you're somewhere in the middle. That's cool.
 

Wandering

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But what I don't get is how I can know what something is, without examining it or applying judgment to some degree. If I stop judging things around me, I just zone out and start daydreaming about things I already know.
Do you realise that Ni, your Dominant, is a *Perceiving* function, not a Judging one? DomNis NEED to "daydream about things they already know", because that's exactly how Ni works. By constantly examining and applying judgement, I fear you are in effect squelching the very source of positivity, security and strength in your inner being. No wonder you feel overwhelmed by the world.
 

alcea rosea

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Very well, then. The values I am disgusted by are:

1. Courage -
2. Trust -
3. Acceptance,

The post where these were mentioned made me sad. :(
Without courage there is not trust and not acceptance.
Without trust and acceptance there is not coperation.
Without coperation there is no civilization.
Without coperation there is no love.
Without love there is nothing.
 

alcea rosea

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Do you realise that Ni, your Dominant, is a *Perceiving* function, not a Judging one? DomNis NEED to "daydream about things they already know", because that's exactly how Ni works. By constantly examining and applying judgement, I fear you are in effect squelching the very source of positivity, security and strength in your inner being. No wonder you feel overwhelmed by the world.

Yes, but being introvert, your second fuction shows to the outer world. So in this case it (should) be Fe. In INTP's case it's Ne. That's the problem with noticing introverts first and second function. The first isn't visible to others but the second is. So ISTP, for example, the Ti (judging) is not visible to outside but Se is. Ti however has it's effects when ISTP's can be very judgemental (the values example). I have myself experienced this controversy at home. ;)
 

Wandering

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Yes, but being introvert, your second fuction shows to the outer world.
True, but I was going after Athenian's self-description that either she judges stuff, or her mind starts wandering: that seems to me to clearly describe her *inner* working, not her outside one.

(I'm having a stupid doubt suddenly: you *are* a she, right, Athenian?)

So in this case it (should) be Fe.
Not much Fe I see coming in and out of our Athenian, from what she herself says :(
 
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