Validity of Drug-Induced Spiritual Experiences

[Mole]

Show and Tell

This is interesting - you have made a comment about my tone - that is, I am speaking in the tone of surety.

This is because I am speaking to you in a light to medium trance.

In a trance I leave some of my cognitive faculties and just say what I see.

This has the advantage of discovering new things.

But most important is that I can return to my full cognitive faculties at will and criticize what I have just seen.

You might say I am speaking to you as a seer.

And as you are probably not in trance, you are able to criticize what I see.

So you and I are point and counterpoint.

Quite like a musical composition.

Victor.

This touches on the structure of our conversation. In that I am speaking as a seer while most here are, quite properly, speaking from their cognitive faculties - from their ego.

So in speaking from the ego, we are, quite properly, concerned about how what is said either enhances the ego or disparages the ego.

And the ego naturally takes offense when it is disparaged.

I don't know what to do about this - on one hand I don't want to diminish your ego; and on the other hand I want to share with you what I see as a seer.

I would like to enhance your ego but this would be therapy, whereas on this thread, I am not interested in talking about spirituality rather I am interested in sharing my immediate experience of spirituality with you.

I am more interested in showing rather than telling.

Victor.

 

[Mole]

Dinning Together

I'm speechless... It may well be impossible to answer that coherently.

So what do you think of your posts once you leave these trances and read your post in full cognitive sense?

It is wonderful you are speechless.

So once I leave my trance, I am able to criticize what I have said.

Usually I find that some of what I have said makes sense and some of it is not quite right.

Essentially what I do is to integrate what I have said into what I already know - some is contradictory and some fits in very well.

Essentially I judge what I have just said - some I judge to be good and some bad.

So I intergate the good into my mind and quite often this gives me new questions to ask.

And even more important, some I find to be tasteful and some distasteful.

So I am able to decide what to eat.

So, in a way, we are sharing a meal.

Victor.

 

[GZA]

Your posts are consistantly difficult to answer. Not because of what you say, but how you say it.

Well, before I go to bed, I just want to pitch one idea. I don't want this to become the main focus of the thread, cause it shouldn't be, but its an idea.

Are you sure you arn't speaking from the ego? Are you sure that by calling yourself a seer and essentially placing yourself above the other posters in this thread you arn't just feeding your ego? It almost seems like this "trance" business is a way to sort of sheild yourself... its extremely difficult to answer your posts the way they are written, and therefor anything anyone says (such as this) could eaisly be the result of misinterpretation and the sort of vague style of your posts makes it difficult to really answer them anyway. You've also made a few baseless claims that are worded just the right way that even if you don't really agree its difficult to pin down exactly what you disagree with and coherently discuss it. I'm not insisting you are doing this by any means, especially intentionally, I'm just presenting it as a possibility. I'm "saying what I see", as you say... its almost like a circular system of saying things that are vague and therefor can't truely be challenged and then defending them with more vague, unchallengable things in the event something is challenged. That last post itself had a lot of stuff that you could use as coverage in case you make a crappy comment.

But if you are having a trance or experience of some sort, I can't question it's legitmacy. If this is really you, I can't question it. People can question themselves, but thats really it. But you did say you don't believe in spirituality, so something seems a bit fishy.

You are truely fascinating, you know, I really do like talking to you, even though its difficult to respond sometimes due to communication styles. You have made some very very good points, like that once the ego and sense of self is developed it is a spiritual experience to transcend that and move beyond it and see a world larger than ourselves. I think thats absolutely true, but I disagree with you over whether or not spiritual experiences can occur in people who have not fully developed their brains and their ego. I also disagree with your idea that 22 is like the universal age of maturity and everything just because its when the brain stops growing. I've met/heard of too many people who had no real sense of self untill their later twenties and too many people who had a sense of what they wanted to be in their late teens to really agree with that.

Anyway, good night!

 

[Mole]

Writing and Editing

So what do you think of your posts once you leave these trances and read your post in full cognitive sense?

It's a bit like writing and editing.

First I write fairly sponteously, but once I have written, and only after I have written, I go back and edit.

While I am writing, my editing mind goes to sleep for a while, and when I have finished, I go back and edit and see what words are right and what words are wrong, and I correct them.

Essentially, here, I am writing and you are editing, both at the same time.

Naturally this is mildly dissonant.

Quite a bit of modern music is dissonant.

And so we learn to listen to the dissonance and even come to enjoy it.

Victor.

 

[FallsPioneer]

What the hell is a spiritual experience? Why should I have them? Is it a big deal whether or not I do have them? I'm a Christian, but is the dude who has some transcendent moment somehow better off than I am?

Back to the topic. Drugs:

1. Destroy inhibitions
2. Cloud judgment

So it would be rather hard to dismiss a spiritual experience as invalid, because I cannot judge for other people when 1 or 2 happens.

 

[substitute]

Ever read The Cosmic Serpent ?

Just thought it was relevant...

 

[suzyk]

I've read about people taking drugs because it can get them closer to God, but aren't most religions against those kinds of things?