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Is it rape if...

CzeCze

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You know, men are human beings with emotions, too.

Sometimes, and sometimes they are breathing wallets with flashing dollar signs over their heads.

Which is why I'd caution men who think they can buy affection or anything else from a woman.

In the above scenario I'm describing, I assume the man is very well aware of what he is doing and is actively trying to buy an exchange from a woman which is why I show very little sympathy for the dood in question. They are trying to play a game but play poorly.

Outside of that kind of scenario, of course I have empathy for both men and women trying to find love in the world.
 

Edgar

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I have nothing against women who use men for money or get men to spend lots of money on them. Feminine wiles have been the only viable bargaining/survival tool/social currency/option for women for many, many generations. If a man is trying to buy sex from a woman and then doesn't get it, can you really fault the woman? I don't. Next time a dood is tempted to throw money at a girl hoping her panties fly off, just remember that no woman is obligated to thank men with her body so if you still strike out you have no one to blame but yourself. If you want that kind of 'sure thing' go to a professional.

A lot of women want to have the same rights as men and want to be offered the same opportunities as men. Women have been marginalized throughout history, and yet, aside from a few physical limitations, are just as capable at doing anything else that men do. So I'm all for the equal rights for women. However, when women were treated as children back in the olden days, there were systems set up to assure womens well being, given the fact that they were restrained from taking care of themselves. Things like chivalry, the expectation that men cover the tabs during social outings, etc. If women had equal rights, none of those things would have been necessary. So when women get the same opportunities as men, it is only fair that the prior expecations of men's chivalrous behavior should be done away with. Just as men are taught that women are equals in the workplace and schools, and women are reminded that they are, indeed, equals, women should be taught to pay their share of the tab, and men should be reminded, that prior social expectation of them being the bankroller are antiquated and inappropriate.

Which gets me to my point. For a woman to actively exploit archaic social expectations while at the same time demanding equal rights is a downright shitty, two faced behavior.
 

CzeCze

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A lot of women want to have the same rights as men and want to be offered the same opportunities as men. Women have been marginalized throughout history, and yet, aside from a few physical limitations, are just as capable at doing anything else that men do. So I'm all for the equal rights for women. However, when women were treated as children back in the olden days, there were systems set up to assure womens well being, given the fact that they were restrained from taking care of themselves. Things like chivalry, the expectation that men cover the tabs during social outings, etc. If women had equal rights, none of those things would have been necessary. So when women get the same opportunities as men, it is only fair that the prior expecations of men's chivalrous behavior should be done away with. Just as men are taught that women are equals in the workplace and schools, and women are reminded that they are, indeed, equals, women should be taught to pay their share of the tab, and men should be reminded, that prior social expectation of them being the bankroller are antiquated and inappropriate.

Which gets me to my point. For a woman to actively exploit archaic social expectations while at the same time demanding equal rights is a downright shitty, two faced behavior.

She can only exploit it so much as men present the opportunity to her or proposition her. And I think women who are in these situations are well aware of their precarious status riding a thin line between 'modern empowerment' and 'the oldest profession known to man'.

If you're talking about how men and women should go dutch on every date, meh. Equality doesn't have to come down to going 50/50 each and every time.
 

Lark

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She can only exploit it so much as men present the opportunity to her or proposition her. And I think women who are in these situations are well aware of their precarious status riding a thin line between 'modern empowerment' and 'the oldest profession known to man'.

If you're talking about how men and women should go dutch on every date, meh. Equality doesn't have to come down to going 50/50 each and every time.

Do lesbians automatically go dutch on every date? What way does equality work then?
 

CzeCze

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Do lesbians automatically go dutch on every date? What way does equality work then?

Whhhat? Personally, going Dutch all the time is a major turn off. I can't imagine this kind of insistence of separation changing when we're coupled. The rule I go buy is whoever asked the other person out is the one who pays for the meal. Then eventually you take turns or it evens out somehow - one person buys dinner, the other person pays for the movie. Geez, equanimity is not the same as mathematical equality.
 

Edgar

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She can only exploit it so much as men present the opportunity to her or proposition her. And I think women who are in these situations are well aware of their precarious status riding a thin line between 'modern empowerment' and 'the oldest profession known to man'.

An honest woman shouldn't be exploiting anyone. Especially a poor sap who has a romantic interest in her.

If you're talking about how men and women should go dutch on every date, meh. Equality doesn't have to come down to going 50/50 each and every time.

Its nice to do something for someone you like, and I don't have anything against that sentiment.

I just don't like people talking about "fair" when they really want "more than fair"
 

Spamtar

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I think if woman can con a man into paying for dinner and a show and give him nothing in return more power to them. Dating is about as fair as a carnival hucksters game.

Paying for an evening out is a gift. It is not a contract.

If the man feels like his expectations are not satified he can stop asking the women out. Stop dating that person is an option to avoid wasting time. Choosing hookups and coffee dates vs. full evening outs with those you are not already fucking is another.

People, regardless of what they say publically, generally don't want equality. They just don't want less than equal and idealy much better than equal. The word "Equality" is just a psudonym to manipulate others with guilt trips or other means.
 

DiscoBiscuit

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[YOUTUBE="aUaXAsMda9M"]Get Money[/YOUTUBE]

uPc8cy4hWoye7hmjgJ2ncW8vo1_500.jpg
 

CzeCze

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An honest woman shouldn't be exploiting anyone. Especially a poor sap who has a romantic interest in her.

True that a virtuous woman wouldn't mislead a man for personal gain. Though I think in many situations, both the man and woman know full well what game they are both playing and are being honest about their motivation. Hence thought-provoking lyrics such as "it ain't trickin' if you got it".

Its nice to do something for someone you like, and I don't have anything against that sentiment.

I just don't like people talking about "fair" when they really want "more than fair"

Fair enough. :alttongue:
 

onemoretime

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Sometimes, and sometimes they are breathing wallets with flashing dollar signs over their heads.

I'm sure they'd disagree.

Which is why I'd caution men who think they can buy affection or anything else from a woman.

Well, when nothing else seems to work...

In the above scenario I'm describing, I assume the man is very well aware of what he is doing and is actively trying to buy an exchange from a woman which is why I show very little sympathy for the dood in question. They are trying to play a game but play poorly.

Perhaps out of desperation?

Outside of that kind of scenario, of course I have empathy for both men and women trying to find love in the world.

I'm not sure you can.
 

CzeCze

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I'm not sure you can.

Oh, I assure you, being a "fire-breathing man-hating hairy-legged feminazi lesbian" doesn't preclude me from having empathy for the fairer sex. Or other women.

HAR HAR HAR.

No, but really, I don't like seeing lovestruck men getting played. My point is that I'm not going to demonize something that women supposedly do (gold-digging, using men for money, etc.) when men not only open themselves up to that situation but actively court it and present the invitation to said woman. Another big factor is that for all the talk of equality in the modern world, all things being equal, a woman is more likely to be financially insecure and easily expoitable (on different levels) than a man. It is very unlikely that a woman can forcefully coerce a man into a relationship or sexual/romantic liaison but sadly, even in this modern day, men can do the same to women.

Also, I like [MENTION=7897]spamtar[/MENTION] 's assessment of this in his quote (and whoohoo for 'mentions'!)
 

Magic Poriferan

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No, but really, I don't like seeing lovestruck men getting played. My point is that I'm not going to demonize something that women supposedly do (gold-digging, using men for money, etc.) when men not only open themselves up to that situation but actively court it and present the invitation to said woman.

As a feminist, you know how that kind of reasoning has been applied to the conduct of women.
 

CzeCze

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As a feminist, you know how that kind of reasoning has been applied to the conduct of women.

I don't think a woman ever approaches a man out of the blue and says, "Please sir, can you rape me?"

However, men do approach women and say, "Please lady, can I ply you with food and drinks and flashy cars in the hopes of sleeping with you?"

But yes, I do understand 'blame the victim' arguments.
 

Lark

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Whhhat? Personally, going Dutch all the time is a major turn off. I can't imagine this kind of insistence of separation changing when we're coupled. The rule I go buy is whoever asked the other person out is the one who pays for the meal. Then eventually you take turns or it evens out somehow - one person buys dinner, the other person pays for the movie. Geez, equanimity is not the same as mathematical equality.

:D :D

I was just wondering, I thought it was a gender thing you were meaning and when people are the same sex its not going to be judged the same way you know?
 

Lark

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I don't think a woman ever approaches a man out of the blue and says, "Please sir, can you rape me?"

However, men do approach women and say, "Please lady, can I ply you with food and drinks and flashy cars in the hopes of sleeping with you?"

But yes, I do understand 'blame the victim' arguments.

Men do? Or asshats do?
 

CzeCze

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:D :D

I was just wondering, I thought it was a gender thing you were meaning and when people are the same sex its not going to be judged the same way you know?

It depends but if you go butch-femme than the butch woman will be chivalrous and pay for the femme, etc. Some women don't like that. Me? I don't mind. The context is different (different relative power relations and historical context when it's two women involved) and while some people see the re-enactment of traditional roles to be repugnant I look at it more on a total scale. As long as the relationship balances out in the end or ends quickly when it's clear it's unbalanced and one or both people are unhappy - I don't see the harm.

For myself, there is so much more insidious gender stereotyping and power plays that go on everyday, I'd rather focus on those interactions. But, that's just me and I don't fault anyone or minimize it when a woman or man insists on going dutch all the time or not opening doors, etc.
 

InvisibleJim

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I dub thee... not another bullshit misanthropic rape thread.

via. the magic of : males are more violent and thus are always rapists and females are not.

enjoy!
 

onemoretime

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Oh, I assure you, being a "fire-breathing man-hating hairy-legged feminazi lesbian" doesn't preclude me from having empathy for the fairer sex. Or other women.

HAR HAR HAR.

It's not so much that you're a feminist, or that you're a woman. It's that you will never have to walk a mile in a man's shoes. I can try to understand women's perspectives, but I'm never going to have the same experience of men that women will. Empathy only goes so far in those situations.

No, but really, I don't like seeing lovestruck men getting played. My point is that I'm not going to demonize something that women supposedly do (gold-digging, using men for money, etc.) when men not only open themselves up to that situation but actively court it and present the invitation to said woman.

You realize that this is logically equivalent to the "well, she shouldn't have gotten so drunk and seemed so willing" argument, don't you? And yes, I'm calling this essentially equivalent to date rape, because it's just as much an emotional violation for men to be used by women like this.

Another big factor is that for all the talk of equality in the modern world, all things being equal, a woman is more likely to be financially insecure and easily expoitable (on different levels) than a man.

That's a pretty strong claim. Do you have evidence of this? Especially given the disproportionately high number of men who are homeless?

It is very unlikely that a woman can forcefully coerce a man into a relationship or sexual/romantic liaison but sadly, even in this modern day, men can do the same to women.

Do you consider deception to be a form of coercion? What about emotional abuse?

I don't think a woman ever approaches a man out of the blue and says, "Please sir, can you rape me?"

However, men do approach women and say, "Please lady, can I ply you with food and drinks and flashy cars in the hopes of sleeping with you?"

Nice straw man. That's not even close to how it goes in practically any case.

But yes, I do understand 'blame the victim' arguments.

Clearly, since you've been quite adept at making a few here.
 
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