Is it rape if...

[xisnotx]

Yeah, you're wrong. Yeah, they were wrong.

The law is not and shouldnt be a fabrication or invention but the public codification of what each and every individual knows to be true, the natural law, which is universal, anyone with a capacity for empathy and mindfulness of others would know that rape is wrong and that rape is not sex, I cant believe that an earlier age was so savage and devoid of empathy that rape was universal.

To be honest your post smacks of the sort of moral relativism and subjectivism which is at the root cause of most social malaise.

hmm..
I don't believe in the concept of "natural law", at least not the way you are using the term. I don't think that there is anything inherently evil about murdering or raping another person, in fact I think you could probably make a case that murder and rape are "natural". Of course I would never murder or rape another person myself, but that is more of a moral choice on my part. Although I do hold this as a "personal natural law" ie a moral, I do not assume that this personal law needs to be applied to the public.

In any given context you are either a moral relativist or a moral absolutist, right? There is no middle ground, it's a dichotomy? In this day and age, especially outside the context of your own culture/society, I think that it is extremely important to be a moral relativist.

In the context of society, I am a moral relativist. In the context of my society I don't even think in these terms. I do what I feel is right/good. I guess this is the empathy you speak of. I just limit these value based decisions to places/people that I know will appreciate them.

I think we can both agree that both absolute moral relativism and absolute moral absolutism is inherently dangerous. As with most things, it comes down to a balancing act.

Do societal moral relativists hold an obligation to cure social malaise even if they themselves don't perceive it?
Do you think that if moral relativism goes unchecked it would lead to mass murder/rape?

 

[Lark]

hmm..
I don't believe in the concept of "natural law", at least not the way you are using the term. I don't think that there is anything inherently evil about murdering or raping another person, in fact I think you could probably make a case that murder and rape are "natural". Of course I would never murder or rape another person myself, but that is more of a moral choice on my part. Although I do hold this as a "personal natural law" ie a moral, I do not assume that this personal law needs to be applied to the public.

In any given context you are either a moral relativist or a moral absolutist, right? There is no middle ground, it's a dichotomy? In this day and age, especially outside the context of your own culture/society, I think that it is extremely important to be a moral relativist.

In the context of society, I am a moral relativist. In the context of my society I don't even think in these terms. I do what I feel is right/good. I guess this is the empathy you speak of. I just limit these value based decisions to places/people that I know will appreciate them.

I think we can both agree that both absolute moral relativism and absolute moral absolutism is inherently dangerous. As with most things, it comes down to a balancing act.

Do societal moral relativists hold an obligation to cure social malaise even if they themselves don't perceive it?
Do you think that if moral relativism goes unchecked it would lead to mass murder/rape?

I've highlighted this bit which I'd particularly like you to clarify, my only response that is "why?".

Anyway, the term absolutist is a misnomer, it is a question of moral relativism or moral universalism, either morals are universally valid or they arent and are just a fiction agreed upon. I think a lot of your post is a mess, although I'm not saying that as a personal insult so please dont consider it so, also its not like your view isnt popular and almost shared by everyone now.

How can you say something such as "in the context of society" if you honestly profess that there's no such thing as universal ethical or moral values? Surely society ceases to exist?

At this point I could go into a tangent about the differences between practical and abstract reasoning but I wont, I'll simply say that just as it is impossible to have a subjective language, one which is entirely unique to you personally or your own invention, it is impossible to be a "linguistic relativist" it is impossible to really possess subjective morals or ethics, it is impossible to really be a moral relativist. That's not to say there's not diversity, different languages, but there are underlying universal laws.

To say that you cant condemn rape and murder is to be out of touch with your basic empathy for others which would tell you that's wrong, maybe people are further from their human nature, their conscience, than they ever were but it takes some sumersaults of logic and philosophical wrangling to get there and sustain that.

 

[InvisibleJim]

it's balloon animals?

 

[FunnyDigestion]

would these hypothetical situations be considered rape?

1) you hypnotize someone into having sex with you

Of course not!

2) you get someone drunk so that you can manipulate them to have sex with you

No!

5) you threaten to withdraw support for an individual if they don't have sex with you (not support that they need, like a job, money for living expenses or healthcare, but some other type of support that they can survive without)

Sexual slavery!! Monetary factors having preeminence over rape factors-- doesn't count!

7) you make your spouse have sex with you after they have been witholding it from you

No!! They knew what they were getting into when they put that ring on their finger!

8) someone has consented to have sex with you. you're in the middle of things and they say "stop!" and you don't

Lord, no!

Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen!

Can't take the rape that hapepsn in the kitchen-- don't come in the kitchen!

 

[FunnyDigestion]

But actually, I think most of those are tantamount to rape if not rape. Except 3-- even if it can involve a lot of emotional manipulation, sometimes girls just want someone who's a lot older... who knows why other than them.

 

[Lark]

But actually, I think most of those are tantamount to rape if not rape. Except 3-- even if it can involve a lot of emotional manipulation, sometimes girls just want someone who's a lot older... who knows why other than them.

I wonder what this means.

 

[Rasofy]

it's balloon animals?

dooooood balloons can't consent, that's totally rape, I don't know how you can live with yourself.

 

[Such Irony]

1) you hypnotize someone into having sex with you

Depends on if the person consents to being hypnotized and they are aware that they are about to be hypnotized.

2) you get someone drunk so that you can manipulate them to have sex with you

What do you mean by manipulation here? I don't see manipulating as rape since I don't think it's forcing someone to have sex. I see it more as strongly persuading someone.


3) you have sex with someone controversially younger than you, but they consent

Generally no, because there is consent. Depends on the age of the person. If the person was a child they might not have the knowledge to make a sound judgement and then you're getting into a really gray area.

4) you manipulate someone into having sex with you when you know they'll regret it later.

Manipulating is not the same as forcing, so no.

5) you threaten to withdraw support for an individual if they don't have sex with you (not support that they need, like a job, money for living expenses or healthcare, but some other type of support that they can survive without)

Not rape but blackmail and morally reprehensible.

6) you threaten to withdraw support that the individual does need (such as those listed above)

Blackmail again, not rape.

7) you make your spouse have sex with you after they have been witholding it from you

Yes, if you are forcing him or her into it without their consent.

8) someone has consented to have sex with you. you're in the middle of things and they say "stop!" and you don't

Yes, definitely.

 

[Jonny]

she is a minority?

 

[Patches]

she is a minority?

 

[FunnyDigestion]

I wonder what this means.

Only a girl who is attacted to much older men really knows anything of why she has that attraction. So it isn't my place or yours to say.

 

[Giggly]

Perhaps elfboy made this thread with raping men in mind.

 

[Elfboy]

Perhaps elfboy made this thread with raping men in mind.

perhaps during sexual role play

 

[Giggly]

Elfboy: Turning threads from sad to sexy in 2.5 seconds.

 

[Jonny]

Man rape is even funnier, I approve.

 

[Elfboy]

Elfboy: Turning threads from sad to sexy in 2.5 seconds.

 

[xisnotx]

I've highlighted this bit which I'd particularly like you to clarify, my only response that is "why?".

To not be is to assume it is possible to fully understand all humans or cultures through your own "lens". If the goal is not to understand, but to judge and condemn, then limiting yourself to your own myopic view point is understandable. However, if we are to discuss anything from that viewpoint, particularly human cultures, and then proceed to let that discussion shape the world in which we live, the results will not be pretty.

 

[Lark]

Only a girl who is attacted to much older men really knows anything of why she has that attraction. So it isn't my place or yours to say.

I thought that was what you meant but I thought you had phrased it in a curious way.

 

[Lark]

To not be is to assume it is possible to fully understand all humans or cultures through your own "lens". If the goal is not to understand, but to judge and condemn, then limiting yourself to your own myopic view point is understandable. However, if we are to discuss anything from that viewpoint, particularly human cultures, and then proceed to let that discussion shape the world in which we live, the results will not be pretty.

I suppose its prettier to attribute rape and murder to cultural and morally relativistic context.

Anyway, I've begun to think that you've dug yourself a hole and cant get out of it, I believe that you probably have the very best, and tolerant, intentions with what you have been saying but I dont believe it is valid, there are universal norms, by virtue of each and all of us being constituted similarly and having a common human nature, social character can bend people out of shape but none the less that universal human nature exists, it is innate, and it would plainly and simply make such actions as rape and murder unconscienable.

BTW I think I will judge and condemn rape and murder if that's alright, if that's ugly then paint me ugly.

 

[FunnyDigestion]

I thought that was what you meant but I thought you had phrased it in a curious way.

Yeah, I can't help it, I'm American... you've probably learned by now we tend to enjoy speaking in a rather goofy manner.