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Is your existence significant or not? (read first post for question detail)

Are you significant? (see OP for question)


  • Total voters
    33

Geoff

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Think for a moment of the inverted pyramid that sits behind you.

You are here, and behind you are thousands of generations of your ancestors. Each one strove to find someone (or thing) to mate with, and each time succeeded despite the odds, to do so before dying.

Each time, one of your ancestral sperm outswam all the others, mated, and survived childbirth, childhood and an uncaring universe.

Every generation behind you succeeded, right back to crawling out of the ocean. Millions of ancestors in a pyramid, and right at the bottom : you.

To even start this process, the right soup had to be created, the right molecules bang together in the right circumstances to kickstart life. Yes, this is all arguable.

Think of all this. Are you as a result significant? Or is this simply emergence/chaos theory at work? Are you simply the emergence out of the chaos of a million billion striving organisms in random effect? Does your existence despite all the odds signify something?

My answer : I must be. All those cumulative generations created me, I must be significant. Surely. Aren't I?
 

disregard

mrs
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I am significant because I will be significant to the future generations of me. They will say, gee thanks for having sex, Dana. I really appreciate being alive. :D
 

Langrenus

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I've voted now so it's too late, but can you clarify what you mean by 'chaos theory' (since I've not come across it in this context before)...I took it to mean 'random events'
 

Geoff

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I've voted now so it's too late, but can you clarify what you mean by 'chaos theory' (since I've not come across it in this context before)...I took it to mean 'random events'

Sure :

Jumble up any sufficiently large set of variables, and a pattern will emerge. A butterfly flaps its wings and a storm hits Florida etc.

The human mind/personality can be seen to be the emergent result of the chaos within the human brain... neurones, chemicals and external stimuli.

In this instance, the billions of organisms can be seen to be the set, and your existence along with other humans an emergent property of its chaotic nature.

Edit : this is fairly helpful, in places Emergence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

-Geoff
 

ptgatsby

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The exact being that I am is one of an infinite amount of potential people, and as I am defined as merely one among infinite, my individual value is 1/infinite. This makes me insignificant.

As for the chaos theory, which I voted for - it assumes too much for me to agree. We don't know what the odds of life are here, nevermind in the trillions of stars, or if the universe is even random. But I took it to mean that you were referring to the interactions since the start of life to create exactly who I am - and yes, that would be exactly what we all are. Random occurances with only one ending to not make any of the potential endings significant... No more than rolling a dice and getting a "6" makes the number "6" significant.
 

disregard

mrs
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but other than what i posted already, my existence is insignificant.

sure.. the chaos theory.. being alive and mobile will undoubtedly have an effect on my environment, but that doesn't mean i'm significant.

history is everything. talking to someone is a part of history. brushing your hair is a part of history. observing a sunrise is a part of history. each and every one of those events were significant to you and have molded you to be the person you are, but that does not mean they are significant. meaning is not synonymous to significance. significance is subjective, meaning... i'd think is not.
 

Geoff

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So not random events then :) Thanks for the clarification, I'll stick with my choice.

Ha. OK. An end result/pattern resulting from a very large set of largely random events.

Edit : I have a purpose to this thread. We have a lot of types here on MBTIC and I want to see if there is a difference on personal significance (particularly where religion is involved).

Edit 2 : given Ptgatsby comments, I have added to the question, so that it is significant that life started, too.

-Geoff
 

Langrenus

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Ha. OK. An end result/pattern resulting from a very large set of largely random events.

Now I'm confused. The butterfly effect is deterministic rather than random, surely? Events are interlinked, and although the cause/effect relationship may sometimes be obscure this doesn't mean events are random?

This reminds me of an argument I had with someone many years ago. If a computer were ever powerful enough to be programmed with the location and velocity of every particle in the universe, could it predict the future with 100% accuracy? Or would Quantum theory make this impossible? Are our thoughts random or just predictable (but complicated) chemical and electrical impulses? Please don't respond, this will completely de-rail Geoff's thread (but Geoff, any clarity on Chaos theory would be grand...I love Friday evenings)
 
Last edited:

ptgatsby

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This reminds me of an argument I had with someone many years ago. If a computer were ever powerful enough to be programmed with the location and velocity of every particle in the universe, could it predict the future with 100% accuracy? Or would Quantum theory make this impossible?

From what I understand, if a computer knew already - then it could predict the outcome. The only problem is that the only way it can know something is by observing it... which changes what it is (making absolute knowledge impossible).

A chaos system states that while an outcome can be expected from initial conditions, any error that exists will become exponentially bigger. (It's a lot more than that, but that's the short answer :D Hillberspace could explain it, I'm sure - I'd PM him if you really want a painful... I mean... complete answer.)
 

Langrenus

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I want to respond, but will refrain :)

Geoff, how are you planning to cross-reference to religion?
 

C.J.Woolf

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No. The actuality of my existence is but one of a very large number of possibilities.

My apologies if someone else said it better.
 

reason

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Jumble up any sufficiently large set of variables, and a pattern will emerge. A butterfly flaps its wings and a storm hits Florida etc.

The human mind/personality can be seen to be the emergent result of the chaos within the human brain... neurones, chemicals and external stimuli.

In this instance, the billions of organisms can be seen to be the set, and your existence along with other humans an emergent property of its chaotic nature.
None of this makes a jot of sense.

The human mind certainly doesn't "emerge" from "chaos." That doesn't follow, since emergence isn't even contigent on chaos in the first place.

In short, chaos theory concerns the unpredictability of complex systems, because even the small difference in initial conditions can have far reaching consequences. The inability of any measuring instrument to capture a sufficiently high resolution report of the initial conditions, effectively places a physical constraint on human knowledge. The clasic example is the weather, where the initial conditions are so complicated that even if all our physical theories are true, we still wouldn't be able to accurately predict it. The "chaos" is a reflection not upon the system itself, but our relationship to the system, which will forever appear "chaotic" to limited beings like ourselves.

Though emergent processes are often chaotic in this sense, in no way does emergence depend on chaos. The notion that the mind results from chaos in the human brain is particularly misguided.
 

HilbertSpace

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Wow, this is going to be an interesting discus...

Hillberspace could explain it, I'm sure - I'd PM him if you really want a painful... I mean... complete answer.)

:sadbanana:

Nocturne pretty much nailed the distinction between chaos and emergent properties, anyway.

There's really two questions at work here, I think.

The first it the question of teleology - is there a plan at work? Is there a purpose (divine or natural) such that our existence plays a role? Theories derived from religions like Christianity answer this with a resounding 'yes,' of course - God exists, He created the Universe with a plan (whether you believe in evolution as his tool or you believe in a young Earth), and humanity, and we as individuals, were created as part, even as the focus of, that plan.

Biologists, on the other hand, reject teleology. Random variation is a cornerstone of the neo-Darwinian synthesis, and there has been experimental validation of this belief. Variations don't occur in order to bring about a specific outcome - the outcome (even something as broad as survival) is a side effect.

The second question, which gets even more at the heart of randomness, is what would happen if we "played back the tape?" If we were able to rewind the Universe, undoing every chemical reaction, and then allowed it to run again, would we see the outcome the same as we see it now?

Although most people would answer no, this is a little bit more of an open question, and it is perhaps a matter of degree - how far can you rewind the tape without having a completely different outcome? If a few bits of matter had zigged rather than zagged, would we have today a world of dinosaurs rather than mammals? Could a different set of species have survived one of the mass extinction events, and if so, what would life on Earth look like today?
 

Geoff

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None of this makes a jot of sense.

The human mind certainly doesn't "emerge" from "chaos." That doesn't follow, since emergence isn't even contigent on chaos in the first place.

In short, chaos theory concerns the unpredictability of complex systems, because even the small difference in initial conditions can have far reaching consequences. The inability of any measuring instrument to capture a sufficiently high resolution report of the initial conditions, effectively places a physical constraint on human knowledge. The clasic example is the weather, where the initial conditions are so complicated that even if all our physical theories are true, we still wouldn't be able to accurately predict it. The "chaos" is a reflection not upon the system itself, but our relationship to the system, which will forever appear "chaotic" to limited beings like ourselves.

Though emergent processes are often chaotic in this sense, in no way does emergence depend on chaos. The notion that the mind results from chaos in the human brain is particularly misguided.

Well, that was pretty blunt. I'm glad I don't make a jot of sense :party2:

My terminology was loose. Sorry, I was driving at consciousness being an emergent property of the underlying mass of unpredictability within the human head. It's a theory, that's all.

Though perhaps a subject for a different thread, there are a multitude of theories as to how and why the human mind arises, yes?

I was referring, perhaps poorly, to the studies of someone far more qualified than myself, in this book :

Basic Books

Seems to me that the unformed (for example infant) human mind starts in a chaotic, disordered state -neurones randomly firing as the individual learns- or perhaps just such a fundamental lack of understanding of how the brain operates, that it appears to be so (?).

As a result the human mind and consciousness can indeed be seen to be a property that arises from the seething mass underneath, of a system largely unpredictable.

In what way is that so particularly misguided. I'm (slightly) insulted!

Can you enlighten me as to how my mind does arise? I would welcome an explanation that could help me understand how consciousness arises with a better fit than it being an emergent property.

Yes, I *know* this isn't a strong academic subject of mine, but I'd hope to be willing to learn and ignorant rather than misguided.

-Geoff
 

wyrdsister

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Good question Geoff.

I'm not here by chance, my ancestors must have done something good.

I'm here to procreate and be a good human. Coz I want to be.

Will I ever really know if it is destiny? Nope maybe only at my death.

Some chance obviously played a part... but some was because my ancestors were clever and shrewed for sure!
 

Park

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I made a wrong vote yesterday. Let me correct to:
- Yes, I am significant, my existence is not pure chance.

I'm starting to believe in destiny/faith. I don't believe that chaos really exist or that anything is random.
 

ptgatsby

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I made a wrong vote yesterday. Let me correct to:
- Yes, I am significant, my existence is not pure chance.

I'm starting to believe in destiny/faith. I don't believe that chaos really exist or that anything is random.

Hmm, just out of curiousity...

If there is such a thing as fate/destiny/predestination, why would your life become more significant? That is to say, if you are predestined, are you not also predestined to have a child (or not) and continue on the predestination path? Why does this imply significance? You share far less dependencies that say, the stars, the moon, the earth... all of which would be equally predestined...
 
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