Difficulty Finding a Religion to Belong To

[Lark]

As for stigmata, I've never been able to bring myself to believe the stories or their point. What is the mechanism? Regardless, I just don't understand the purpose. It's obviously not mass converting people to a certain religion, so if it is divine intervention then the divine being should have been able to anticipate it's lack of reception, no?

I dont entirely understand it either, it serves some purpose and occurs only in the saintly or devout, it is not a matter of a trick of the mind and that's why I mentioned it.

The subatomic theorising is different from the interior or religion in the mind theorising which I believed you were talking about, I have encountered something like it in theories that humankind is the cosmos itself becoming conscious and as a result there is a possibility that because mankind exists, all other things, time etc. are possible.

I'm a little uncomfortable with that theory because it is one of many which have man at its heart or centre rather than God, putting man at the centre just doesnt make sense to me, gravitation for instance exists whether man believes in it or has conceptualised it or not, so does an orderly universe which I believe is a pale reflection of the deity itself.

 

[fecaleagle]

I dont entirely understand it either, it serves some purpose and occurs only in the saintly or devout, it is not a matter of a trick of the mind and that's why I mentioned it.

The subatomic theorising is different from the interior or religion in the mind theorising which I believed you were talking about, I have encountered something like it in theories that humankind is the cosmos itself becoming conscious and as a result there is a possibility that because mankind exists, all other things, time etc. are possible.

I'm a little uncomfortable with that theory because it is one of many which have man at its heart or centre rather than God, putting man at the centre just doesnt make sense to me, gravitation for instance exists whether man believes in it or has conceptualised it or not, so does an orderly universe which I believe is a pale reflection of the deity itself.

I really don't know much about the stories of stigmata, but would it be possible that the body markings are self inflicted and not remembered? I have read that historically, following a beginning and progression of the possible emergence of integration between the left and right hemispheres, that some people trained themselves through religious ceremonies and practice to allow the right hemisphere to take complete dominance of their personalities. Reports (mostly from women who have less lateralization of the brain..hmm oracles and sibyls?) indicate that whatever was said or done during that hypnotic state was not relayed to conscious mind nor was it remembered by that person. So perhaps somehow one person started with the inflicting of self harm, and following reports of that it subconsciously caught on within that group or population?

As for my attempt to integrate subatomic and interior religion, I realize that they are presented as separate and unrelated theories. I was simply proposing a novel possibility that the two could be connected on the most fundamental of levels. It would turn everything upside down, but it's still fun stuff to think about for me.

Interesting though that you chose gravitation as your example of something completely separate from man. Going back to my previous mentioning of M theory, gravity is actually the only force (of all 4) whose elementary particle the graviton also exists in the tiny 7d universe separate from ours, instead of being trapped only in our 3 dimensional superstring membrane like photons, gluons, and W/Z bosons. I wonder if this perlexity of gravity to so many people throughout history and even today says anything about our unconscious mind. Or maybe you could've easily said light instead of gravity and I'm trying to make silly Ni connections. What if "God" is just an undiscovered force that exists or originates in a higher dimensional universe just like gravity? If not the same one, maybe something 1 step up proportionally and we just don't have the mathematics to prove it yet. What if there are actually much more than 10 spatial dimensions?

What if the concept of God (and the implied behavior that one's belief in him entails) simply exists in our mind like the temporal lobe for instance. No particle physics involved, just basic neuroscience. Should it make much of a difference? If one has religious beliefs and upholds them, despite whether you can consider it real or a mental tricks, does the difference matter? Does it matter if the concept of God is subjective or objective?

 

[Lark]

Does it matter if the concept of God is subjective or objective?

I'm going to read the entire post in a little more detail, this bit just caught my eye and I have to say yeah it matters. A lot.

 

[CuriousFeeling]

Sorry if I missed this, but why do you desire rituals?

In order to be classified as a particular religion, there is a set of rituals that goes with it. If there isn't a set of rituals associated with what you already do spiritually with existing religions, then what religion would it be classified as?

It's more of a desire to identify my spiritual/religious niche, if this makes sense.

 

[Coriolis]

Coriolis, thank you for your input.

Essentially what I got to do is 1. determine what I believe deep down, and 2. which set of rituals will best match my beliefs.

It's a bit like Luke Skywalker learning to use The Force... have to be patient in order to really grasp it.

The ritual, or practice, doesn't really need to match your beliefs, more your aesthetic sense and to some degree your background/personal history. For example, would a natural setting, or a comfortable home, or a traditional church make you feel most relaxed/at ease/open to the divine? Do you respond to music, singing, even dance, with lots of energy? or to something quieter like chant? or to quiet, like Quaker worship? Does it help to engage all the senses - things to touch, smell, hear, taste, see; or is all this just a distraction? Are words/language an important part of ritual for you, or are actions and symbols more meaningful? Do you want to be a key participant in the ritual, or do you prefer being part of the "audience" while worship leaders do most things?

Each of these attributes can be used in a wide variety of belief systems. I find that if my beliefs are not accepted within my faith group, I feel dishonest; but if the ritual, or worship style is unsuited to my preferences, it feels forced. When both are in agreement, it brings a sense of all being well in the (my) world.

@ JAVO: Humans have rituals - we just do. Intentional or unintentional; religious, civic, personal; we all have sequences of actions we repeat on a daily, weekly, seasonal, or other basis that take on meaning that is somehow deeper than the sum of the individual steps and purpose. We can use this human tendency to our benefit, for spiritual development, personal comfort, and even aesthetic enjoyment.

 

[Mole]

The Leaving Ceremony

The real problem is not finding a religion to belong to, but finding a religion to leave.

For all religions have an initiation ceremony. The christians call it baptism. But no religion has a ceremony for leaveing.

We have an initiation ceremony for marriage where we say, I do. And we have a ceremony for leaving marriange, called divorce. But no religion has a ceremony for leaving the religion.

Indeed they are not very keen for you to leave at all and are inclined to call you an apostate, and in Islam, for instance, an apostate can be killed by any muslim.

So why is there no ceremony for leaving any religion?

Is it because there is no ceremony for leaving the Mafia?

 

[Nicodemus]

For all religions have an initiation ceremony. The christians call it baptism. But no religion has a ceremony for leaveing.

I believe there is no official initiation ceremony in Islam.

 

[Mole]

I believe there is no official initiation ceremony in Islam.

I believe the initiation ceremony is simply saying that there is but one God and Mohammed is his prophet.

 

[Nicodemus]

I believe the initiation ceremony is simply saying that there is but one God and Mohammed is his prophet.

Well, but to no one in particular. If that is sufficient to be called a ceremony, then there is also a leaving ceremony.

 

[Mole]

Well, but to no one in particular. If that is sufficient to be called a ceremony, then there is also a leaving ceremony.

Perhaps you're right.

 

[CuriousFeeling]

The ritual, or practice, doesn't really need to match your beliefs, more your aesthetic sense and to some degree your background/personal history.

To answer your questions here:

For example, would a natural setting, or a comfortable home, or a traditional church make you feel most relaxed/at ease/open to the divine?

I can find a connection to the divine practically anywhere. I could be at home, in a church, or in a natural setting, and I still feel the presence of God. No boundaries in this respect.

Do you respond to music, singing, even dance, with lots of energy? or to something quieter like chant? or to quiet, like Quaker worship?

I find the most intense spiritual connections though music and singing. With secular pieces, I've experienced intense spiritual experiences if the music takes my mind to a new level, where I can visualize Heaven, and also feel like the hairs on the back of my neck standing on end, or even feeling like I can be brought to tears. I'd like to have this type of experience with spiritual pieces. There has to be an emotional connection. I don't need to dance out of my chair or anything, but I really crave a more emotional spiritual experience. Something that feels epic and full of majestic grandeur.

Are words/language an important part of ritual for you, or are actions and symbols more meaningful?

A mixture of both. I like having the opportunity to do community service and perform good deeds to make the world a better place for us to live in. Words and language are important too, it gives me a deeper understanding of the religion and the history of it. I love to study things, and the more wisdom I gather from a religious/spiritual perspective and form connections between religion and my science knowledge, the better!

Do you want to be a key participant in the ritual, or do you prefer being part of the "audience" while worship leaders do most things?

Key participant, like a student-teacher type of interaction. If there's a question that pops up in my mind, I'd like to have the opportunity to ask it and obtain better understanding of what is being discussed. I suppose a more academic type of style.


Now what fits those criteria, I have no clue! LOL

 

[JAVO]

In order to be classified as a particular religion, there is a set of rituals that goes with it. If there isn't a set of rituals associated with what you already do spiritually with existing religions, then what religion would it be classified as?

It's more of a desire to identify my spiritual/religious niche, if this makes sense.

I think of religion as one's set of beliefs about existence and the meaning of life, as one's "ultimate concern" (as existential theologian Paul Tillich defines it). I think of rituals as specific, predefined actions. I also view the two as independent of each other. For example, if I had to apply a specific and succinct (one word only ) label to my own religious perspective, I would have to say "Christian," even though I very rarely engage in any Christian rituals, and cringe at some of the negative connotations of the label.

It sounds like you are looking mainly for social affiliation with those who have a similar spiritual perspective? I think you would be most likely to find this at churches located near major universities where most of the participants are professors and students. They are also likely to be less formal groups who meet and worship in houses, schools, and campus buildings. I doubt the ideal group exists though. It will be an exercise in attempting to find the closest match which is still both tolerable and somewhat worthwhile.

 

[CuriousFeeling]

I think of religion as one's set of beliefs about existence and the meaning of life, as one's "ultimate concern" (as existential theologian Paul Tillich defines it). I think of rituals as specific, predefined actions. I also view the two as independent of each other. For example, if I had to apply a specific and succinct (one word only ) label to my own religious perspective, I would have to say "Christian," even though I very rarely engage in any Christian rituals, and cringe at some of the negative connotations of the label.

It sounds like you are looking mainly for social affiliation with those who have a similar spiritual perspective? I think you would be most likely to find this at churches located near major universities where most of the participants are professors and students. They are also likely to be less formal groups who meet and worship in houses, schools, and campus buildings. I doubt the ideal group exists though. It will be an exercise in attempting to find the closest match which is still both tolerable and somewhat worthwhile.

Yes, finding social affiliation with those that share a similar spiritual perspective as mine is what I am searching for. That, and interpreting it with a scholarly/academic approach, in combination with the emotional/spiritual connection, feels more natural to me... and would be the most enlightening.

 

[Coriolis]

So why is there no ceremony for leaving any religion?

There is always Catholic excommunication.

Is it because there is no ceremony for leaving the Mafia?

There is -- execution.

 

[Coriolis]

Now what fits those criteria, I have no clue! LOL

Well, service activities aren't usually part of ritual itself, though they are often very important overall. From your answers, I would suggest a small congregation, perhaps even a house-church or prayer circle meeting apart from a church/temple; and one that has a strong musical element that coincides with your interests. (E.g. I like music in worship, too, but detest "praise music" and much of modern church music.) Now cross this with your preferred belief system, and you have an idea of what to look for. You may not find it exactly, but knowing your own preferences is a helpful guide.

 

[Mole]

Tragedy

There is a time to learn our heritage and a time to reject our heritage.

We learn our religious heritage as children and we reject our religious heritage as grown ups.

But if we are given no religious heritage as children, we have nothing to reject as grown ups.

This is simply a tragedy. It can't be remedied. If we become a convert, we will never be the same as those who took their religion in uncritically as children.

So my advice is to explore the tragedy of your life by reading the Ancient Greek Tragedies and reading the Shakespearean Tragedies, and see yourself as in a mirror.

 

[A window to the soul]

There is a time to learn our heritage and a time to reject our heritage.

We learn our religious heritage as children and we reject our religious heritage as grown ups.

But if we are given no religious heritage as children, we have nothing to reject as grown ups.

This is simply a tragedy. It can't be remedied. If we become a convert, we will never be the same as those who took their religion in uncritically as children.

So my advice is to explore the tragedy of your life by reading the Ancient Greek Tragedies and reading the Shakespearean Tragedies, and see yourself as in a mirror.

There is none righteous Victor and the tragedy is a foolish heart that suppresses the truth. Have faith. God has made everything beautiful in his time. To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.

 

[Mole]

There is none righteous Victor and the tragedy is a foolish heart that suppresses the truth. Have faith. God has made everything beautiful in his time. To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven.

This is true, Nerd Girl, there is a time for every purpose under heaven, but not at the same time.

So we must segue between one purpose and another. And the segue is a hiatus - a pause where everything stops, but starts again a moment later.

I personally think the hiatus is the most interesting part of life. I inhabit hiati. I live in the interstices of hiati. Look, we are in a hiatus together now. And see, it doesn't hurt much at all.

The hiatus is most important in l'alternance. It is the moment we stop between dancing and sitting. It's where nothing appears to be happening, but everything is happening.

As now nothing seems to be happening but we are sharing our psyches for good or ill.

Look, Victor and Nerd Girl are sharing their psyches and think nothing is happening, not knowing what may be born - slouching towards Bethlehem..

 

[Riva]

The one thing I really enjoy about Buddha is he never spoke about an afterlife; he spoke about a state of being, but of no god, because he didn't believe he could as he didn't know if it existed or not. He did say that if it did exist no human could describe it without being wrong. I enjoy that.

(1) He always spoke on afterlife.
(2) He said there is no all powerful creator god. But there are Gods/devas.
(3) He said that an all powerful God couldn't exist because according to Buddha, a fundamental fact about the universe is that nothing is permanent. And if nothing is permanent there could not be an eternal god.
(4) You shouldn't enjoy any of that (what you said).

Who taught you about Buddhism? The pope?

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

(1) He always spoke on afterlife.
(2) He said there is no all powerful creator god. But there are Gods/devas.
(3) He said that an all powerful God couldn't exist because according to Buddha, a fundamental fact about the universe is that nothing is permanent. And if nothing is permanent there could not be an eternal god.
(4) You shouldn't enjoy any of that (what you said.)

Who taught you about Buddhism? The pope?

Thanks for doing the work of correcting my mistakes. I'm going to turn my paper into the teacher now.