What is art?

[Elfboy]

why isn't art beautiful anymore? why are modern artists so indulging of the grotesque, the ordinary and the base? why is art no longer used to inspire to a higher ideal, beauty, or motivation? has art become an expression of shame or hopelessness?

 

[Rail Tracer]

Art is what you make of it.

With that I ask...What is beautiful to you? What is ugly to you? What is ordinary to you? What are these "higher ordeals" to you? What type of expressions connotes shame or hopelessness to you?

Now, what can these other people see that you can't see?

 

[Patches]

why isn't art beautiful anymore? why are modern artists so indulging of the grotesque, the ordinary and the base? why is art no longer used to inspire to a higher ideal, beauty, or motivation? has art become an expression of shame or hopelessness?

I think current artists cover a VERY, VERY wide variety of subjects, and styles... And to generalize all of it into a few adjectives is impossible. And, the obvious... Just because YOU draw no inspiration from it, does not mean that others don't. I don't think the majority of art has any sort of outwardly defined/external meaning, beauty, or ideal. Art is what you make of it yourself, internally.



Also, this thread made me think of this:

 

[Elfboy]

I think current artists cover a VERY, VERY wide variety of subjects, and styles... And to generalize all of it into a few adjectives is impossible. And, the obvious... Just because YOU draw no inspiration from it, does not mean that others don't. I don't think the majority of art has any sort of outwardly defined/external meaning, beauty, or ideal. Art is what you make of it yourself, internally.


Also, this thread made me think of this:

there are many artists still producing beautiful art, but the general trend is towards to grotesque

 

[Rail Tracer]

there are many artists still producing beautiful art, but the general trend is towards to grotesque

And grotesque can't be beautiful...... why?

 

[Elfboy]

Art is what you make of it.

With that I ask...What is beautiful to you? What is ugly to you? What is ordinary to you? What are these "higher ordeals" to you? What type of expressions connotes shame or hopelessness to you?

Now, what can these other people see that you can't see?

my argument is that what is beautiful is not completely subjective. for instance, humans are psychologically designed to think that clean things are more beautiful than things that are dirty or that people who smile are better looking than people who don't. more subjectively, people are designed to think that ideal is more interesting than ordinary or that pleasant is more beautiful than disgusting.

 

[Elfboy]

And grotesque can't be beautiful...... why?

the definition of beautiful

having beauty; having qualities that give great pleasure or satisfaction to see, hear, think about, etc.; delighting the senses or mind: a beautiful dress; a beautiful speech.

2.
excellent of its kind: a beautiful putt on the seventh hole; The chef served us a beautiful roast of beef.

3.
wonderful; very pleasing or satisfying.

the definition of grotesque

odd or unnatural in shape, appearance, or character; fantastically ugly or absurd; bizarre.

 

[Rail Tracer]

my argument is that what is beautiful is not completely subjective. for instance, humans are psychologically designed to think that clean things are more beautiful than things that are dirty or that people who smile are better looking than people who don't. more subjectively, people are designed to think that ideal is more interesting than ordinary or that pleasant is more beautiful than disgusting.

We can keep going in circles if you want.
What is clean? What is dirty?
What is ideal to you? What is ordinary to you?
What is pleasant to you? What is disgusting to you?

Let us put it this way. From what I remember you, elfboy, said that you were gay. What do you think of it? What do others think of it? Do you think it is beautiful? Do others think it is beautiful? Do people think two guys or two girls making out is hot or disgusting? Is it grotesque to you or is it grotesque to someone else?

the definition of beautiful

And you gave me a definition because? I want your definition of beautiful and grotesque, not someone elses definition.

One person may very well see an angel as beautiful while another sees the angel as grotesque, which is it? How do you describe an angel? What makes the angel beautiful?

 

[Elfboy]

We can keep going in circles if you want.
What is clean? What is dirty?
What is ideal to you? What is ordinary to you?
What is pleasant to you? What is disgusting to you?

Let us put it this way. From what I remember you, elfboy, said that you were gay. What do you think of it? What do others think of it? Do you think it is beautiful? Do others think it is beautiful? Do people think two guys or two girls making out is hot or disgusting? Is it grotesque to you or is it grotesque to someone else?


And you gave me a definition because? I want your definition of beautiful and grotesque, not someone elses definition.

One person may very well see an angel as beautiful while another sees the angel as grotesque which is it?

although I don't pretend to be able to define these things in every thing I see around me, I think I have a good grasp intuitively. my point however, is simply that they can to an extent be objectively defined. it's common sense for instance, that an artist painting flies swarming around a pile of feces knows that this is not something that is clean or beautiful

 

[Thalassa]

Art is something authentic and genuine that conveys a powerful idea and/or emotion through various mediums, such as music, painting, dancing, or poetry.

Art makes you feel. Art comes from your soul. It is not something that can be defined by one person.

There is 80's pop that is art to me, son, hush your mouth.

And for that matter, sometimes what is ugly is THE TRUTH. If art is ugly but it also conveys something genuine, something real about the human experience, then it's still art.

That's art to me - it's in the authenticity of expression and communication of feeling.

That being said, I don't like really abstract art. I think it's dumb. Like blotches on a canvas. Mmkay. No.

 

[Rail Tracer]

although I don't pretend to be able to define these things in every thing I see around me, I think I have a good grasp intuitively. my point however, is simply that they can to an extent be objectively defined. it's common sense for instance, that an artist painting flies swarming around a pile of feces knows that this is not something that is clean or beautiful

What is common sense?

Is the focus the feces? Or is the focus towards the swarm? Why are the flies swarming the feces?

Is it a representation of mankind swarming over what they can to survive much like how many people my age work? Is it describing the mentality of 3rd world countries versus dominant countries? Is it saying "one mans trash is another man's treasure"?

What I sees is not
What you see.

What Marmie sees is not
What I see.

What you see is not
What Patches see.

 

[Thalassa]

although I don't pretend to be able to define these things in every thing I see around me, I think I have a good grasp intuitively. my point however, is simply that they can to an extent be objectively defined. it's common sense for instance, that an artist painting flies swarming around a pile of feces knows that this is not something that is clean or beautiful

I think what you're describing is aesthetics. It defines beauty and "taste." I am of the opinion it is strongly connected to Si (this is why people keep telling you you're ISFJ, okay? but it's alright because NFPs have Fi/Si which can make us aesthetes as well) ...what is aesthetically pleasing is one way of defining art. But it is not the only way.

I appreciate aesthetics as well. A sense of order, symmetry, form, function, aaaah. Matchy matchy. Quality, refinement. Less is more. That kind of thing.

I understand, but I don't think it is the totality of what is "art."

 

[Elfboy]

I think what you're describing is aesthetics. It defines beauty and "taste." I am of the opinion it is strongly connected to Si (this is why people keep telling you you're ISFJ, okay? but it's alright because NFPs have Fi/Si which can make us aesthetes as well) ...what is aesthetically pleasing is one way of defining art. But it is not the only way.

I appreciate aesthetics as well. A sense of order, symmetry, form, function, aaaah. Matchy matchy. Quality, refinement. Less is more. That kind of thing.

I understand, but I don't think it is the totality of what is "art."

that is one of the reasons I'm reconsidering INFP. Fi/Si is interested in just what you mentioned. I dislike modern art because I believe much of it is ignoble and lacking inspiration of any positive kind.

 

[Thalassa]

that is one of the reasons I'm reconsidering INFP. Fi/Si is interested in just what you mentioned. I dislike modern art because I believe much of it is ignoble and lacking inspiration of any positive kind.

I have a lot of Si for an ENFP, too.

Except I want to sing and dance and beat people up too much to be an INFP.

 

[Elfboy]

I have a lot of Si for an ENFP, too.

Except I want to sing and dance and beat people up too much to be an INFP.

wanting to beat up people is ENFP? I would think a lot of INFPs want to beat people up

 

[Thalassa]

wanting to beat up people is ENFP? I would think a lot of INFPs want to beat people up

Haha...I just meant that I'm very expressive and forthcoming. You seem to be this way as well.

Otherwise I'd go INFP, yes.

 

[Rail Tracer]

I think what you're describing is aesthetics. It defines beauty and "taste." I am of the opinion it is strongly connected to Si (this is why people keep telling you you're ISFJ, okay? but it's alright because NFPs have Fi/Si which can make us aesthetes as well) ...what is aesthetically pleasing is one way of defining art. But it is not the only way.

I appreciate aesthetics as well. A sense of order, symmetry, form, function, aaaah. Matchy matchy. Quality, refinement. Less is more. That kind of thing.

I understand, but I don't think it is the totality of what is "art."

I am not the type to like such "art" as toilet seat covers, but whatever float that person's boat.

that is one of the reasons I'm reconsidering INFP. Fi/Si is interested in just what you mentioned. I dislike modern art because I believe much of it is ignoble and lacking inspiration of any positive kind.

And that is what YOU see.

Do you get it?

 

[Thalassa]

I am not the type to like such "art" as toilet seat covers, but whatever float that person's boat.

Aesthetics isn't about toilet seat covers, bro. It's about things like clean lines and visual balance and musical harmony. I'm a little annoyed that you jump from Si to fluffy toilet covers. We're going to have to work on that. Just because your Aunt Greta's Si likes toilet seat covers doesn't mean that's what Si universally considers "aesthetics."

 

[Ginkgo]

why isn't art beautiful anymore? why are modern artists so indulging of the grotesque, the ordinary and the base? why is art no longer used to inspire to a higher ideal, beauty, or motivation? has art become an expression of shame or hopelessness?

All started with Picasso and the movement away from the real. However, even in the real, art has been grotesque. Re-creation to the core. You relish in the sadness of death. Problem?

Art depicts everything conceivable. You may as well whine about whining. Why are you whining? You are lamenting? Now you know. You spread your message like an artist, but in my eyes lacking beauty and complexity. Be angry at me and know pain, know the pain of an artist in the midst of his critics.

Oh, but you think there is a cause to the feeling of misfortune? You think times are a'changing? They may appear to be, but pain whipped us away from anything that could cause us harm the minute nerve endings were invented.

Why not start a thread about society's sorrow and stop beating around the bush? Glamorization and sophistication? Do you assume a form you do not possess? What do you really know about art?

 

[Rail Tracer]

Aesthetics isn't about toilet seat covers, bro. It's about things like clean lines and visual balance and musical harmony. I'm a little annoyed that you jump from Si to fluffy toilet covers. We're going to have to work on that. Just because your Aunt Greta's Si likes toilet seat covers doesn't mean that's what Si universally considers "aesthetics."

Hey, toilet seat covers are symmetrical. Some hard, some soft. Some painted black, some painted white. Some of these toilet cover seats are the color of dung. Many curve similarly to a horseshoe.

We were talking about modern art (or rather, elfboy was.) Have you not see toilet seat covers on display(whether online or in real life, whether in a store, museum, or in your local restroom?)

Hahahahaha

And that is what I am getting at (bolded part)

I can avoid making crude statements but..... what does it take to put out something as simple as what you see?