Reality Check he's in hell?

[Qlip]

I am a Christian, an RC (I know some protestants dont believe them to be the same thing), but I have met a lot of people who share this view here, I dont know why that should actually be the case but its more complex I feel than being alienated from God as an authority principle or traditional associations or "bad religion", why do you feel this way?

I grew up in a Bible based authoritarian culture and ultimately rejected it. Mainstream Christians will agree with me that the Jehovah's Witnesses are not the answer. What they don't understand is that from neutral mind most religions look the same in spite of any claims of exclusivity.

For Christians supposedly the mark of truth is ultimately guided by the Holy Spirit, since it seems to require faith to recognize true Authority. This smacks to me of typical JW salesmanship. I've seen Holy Spirit in action. Holy Spirit is loneliness, it is the desire to belong to something, to be cared for. It's an act of irrational need.

In spite of my rejection of the exclusivity of Christianity I do believe in Good and believe that there is meaning in life, which for someone concerned about those things is not evident in a purely Materialistic universe. This gives me my syncretic leanings.

 

[Lark]

[YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnrJVTSYLr8"]Erasing Hell by Francis Chan[/YOUTUBE]

I do think there's errors in anthropomorphising God, attributing human, all too human behaviour and thinking to him, although like I've said before you either believe in a vengeful deity or one which is a loving God, I believe that the vengeful deity thesis is fundamentally flawed, erronious, mistaken and its persistence has been a plague upon Christianity and plague upon mankind.

 

[Not_Me]

I think this depends what you mean, what are "abstract guidelines" as opposed to "principles"?

Simple example would be the church condemning all sorts of sexuality. These values are outdated and serves no useful purpose.

 

[Beorn]

I do think there's errors in anthropomorphising God, attributing human, all too human behaviour and thinking to him, although like I've said before you either believe in a vengeful deity or one which is a loving God, I believe that the vengeful deity thesis is fundamentally flawed, erronious, mistaken and its persistence has been a plague upon Christianity and plague upon mankind.

Apparently you've never read Ezekiel 25:17.

[YOUTUBE="UmvnXKRfdb8"]Pulp Fiction[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Lark]

Simple example would be the church condemning all sorts of sexuality. These values are outdated and serves no useful purpose.

Yeah, alright, carry on with the years of knowledge wasted and ignored approach if that works for you.

 

[Not_Me]

Yeah, alright, carry on with the years of knowledge wasted and ignored approach if that works for you.

Of course it works. The advancement of knowledge involves adapting to new information. That process has been demonstrated to work much better at converging on the truth than rigid adherence to dogma.

 

[Not_Me]

Yeah, alright, carry on with the years of knowledge wasted and ignored approach if that works for you.

Of course it works. The advancement of knowledge involves adapting to new information. That process has been demonstrated to work much better at converging on the truth than rigid adherence to dogma.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

I don't understand why death should be the cut off point. Doesn't love keep no record of wrongs, always protects, always trusts, always perseveres, never fails? Why should the loss of the body make a difference to that? Why the divine doorslam, or fire, or worms, or darkness, or whatever? Why the chasm that can't be crossed? Why judgement day? And while we're at it, why is faith without evidence so bloody necessary? Didn't Jesus produce signs so people would believe? If so then clearly he didn't think it'd interfere with faith, or render it invalid.

 

[Not_Me]

Why judgement day? And while we're at it, why is faith without evidence so bloody necessary?

Very convenient, isn't it? How else would a wealthy kings motivate the unwashed massed to sacrifice their lives for him?

 

[Lark]

Of course it works. The advancement of knowledge involves adapting to new information. That process has been demonstrated to work much better at converging on the truth than rigid adherence to dogma.

Or you could judge innovation as wanting in the balance with tradition.

Its why there's such a thing as college football but no, you know, college Gladiators.

 

[Lark]

I don't understand why death should be the cut off point. Doesn't love keep no record of wrongs, always protects, always trusts, always perseveres, never fails? Why should the loss of the body make a difference to that? Why the divine doorslam, or fire, or worms, or darkness, or whatever? Why the chasm that can't be crossed? Why judgement day? And while we're at it, why is faith without evidence so bloody necessary? Didn't Jesus produce signs so people would believe? If so then clearly he didn't think it'd interfere with faith, or render it invalid.

What evidence do you want?

Its like the story about the man who throws himself in the river expecting god to save him, a man walks by and fishes him out, he does it again and a river patrol boat fishes him out, he does it again and a coastguard helicopter fishes him out, he does it again and drowns and tells God he did nothing to save him, God says I sent you a man, a boat and finally a helicopter, what do you want?

The story of Thomas is there for a reason too, he is the skeptic and he was shown the evidence, the bible says happy he who hasnt seen and yet believes, it doesnt say damned is he who hasnt seen and doesnt believe.

 

[Lark]

Very convenient, isn't it? How else would a wealthy kings motivate the unwashed massed to sacrifice their lives for him?

Capitalism? Humanism? Enlightenment? Modernism?

I mean take your pick.

 

[Not_Me]

Capitalism? Humanism? Enlightenment? Modernism?

I mean take your pick.

What? Those are reasons to rebel and prop the tyrant's head on a stick, not sacrifice one's life for him.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

What evidence do you want?

Some of the same evidence Jesus apparently considered necessary would be nice. I hear those apostles were no slouches in the signs department either. They didn't consider miraculous signs to be demeaning to faith.

So no comment on my question about death?

 

[Sanctus Iacobus]

Why the chasm that can't be crossed?

The chasm has been crossed by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Once a person puts an end to the Atheist delusion or avoiding God (rebellion) or trying to cross the chasm on their own (religion), they can cross through belief in Jesus (relationship with God) and once a person is in Christ, answers to a lot of these questions are answered. For me my greatest fear was losing my identity in what seemed a lot like a cult-state of bliss, but rather I have found who I truly am behind the status, money, intelligence, whatever we use to define ourselves.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

I don't think you read my post properly, jwn. I was referring to the chasm that exists after death. Let me rephrase it. Why should death make a difference to grace?

 

[Lark]

What? Those are reasons to rebel and prop the tyrant's head on a stick, not sacrifice one's life for him.

Sure they are

 

[Lark]

Some of the same evidence Jesus apparently considered necessary would be nice. I hear those apostles were no slouches in the signs department either. They didn't consider miraculous signs to be demeaning to faith.

So no comment on my question about death?

What's that?

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Sorry for such a late response, to the second post, but does anyone find it strange that this monk dreamt of a fiery place, while he was about to be cremated?

It's hard for me to believe in a Hell. If Heaven is indescribably euphoric, then shouldn't Hell be indescribable as well? Logically, I would think that any human couldn't describe either one, even if the being allowing them to enter these places was trying to translate how painful it would be... We still wouldn't understand it. I enjoy the theory about disconnection, an extremely cold place. Like Dante's interpretation.