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Prayer in school

Lark

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Mandatory prayer in schools is a blatant forcing of morals onto others.

Unless it's a religiously based school, then I see no problem with it.

But would it be? I'm not sure what prayer actually has to do with morals, do you?

Prayer is about spirituality or religion, I continue to make the connections between it and meditation, the two things were at a time synonymous really and in these disappointing, dull secular times the benefits of meditation wouldnt be argued but the benefits of prayer are, its almost a right of passage that they are and I could see some sort of morning assembly "anti-prayer" in which everyone gathered to condemn the practice would actually prove popular.

To be honest I think it's a better idea to look at what the prayer involves, there's been no prayer thread on this forum and there's probably not two opinions the same about that even, then to consider the sincerity, the offering up of phony thanks routinely or anything like it is going to serve atheism and secularism far better in the long run than anything else at all. I know people who've been put off religion or spirituality of any kind for years by the behaviour of one or two bad teachers or ministers or the like only to return to it after terrible negative life experiences, possibly crisis, and entering later life.
 

Perch420

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1) Religion is a burden on society.

2) Therefore, society should get rid of religion.

3) The best way to get rid of religion is by suppressing it and educating the public about its flaws and inconsistencies. (This worked in the Soviet Union to great effect)

4) Therefore, we must suppress religion and educate the public about its flaws and inconsistencies.
 

OmarFW

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But would it be? I'm not sure what prayer actually has to do with morals, do you?

Prayer is ritualistic action centered around aiming thankfulness and the seeking of guidance towards a higher deity. Belief in god is mostly morally based and forcing prayer upon someone is through proxy forcing moral beliefs upon them.

What if a student is an atheist and does not believe in such a deity?

I pray myself, but I am certainly not going to FORCE someone to do it if they don't want to. That's asenine. You cannot force a country to conform that much for it is not possible.
 

Mole

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I don't see any harm in religious ed or ethics class. In addition, I believe if you attend private school and know what the expectations are ahead of time, it should not be a shock. However, no one should be *forced* to pray (as in get detention if they don't).

I attended a private school and was compelled to pray every day and at length. It was a wonderful innoculation against religion.
 

Mole

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Molotov-Ribintrop Pact

Not at all. On the contrary.

I think I am the one who has faith in the West and what it stands for while Theo and Ayaan and many like them warn of its imminent death.

And America is a funny example, considering the power radical Christianity holds in that culture.

Another difference between us might be that while I identify with the West and its ideals, I have no true sense of belonging to a group that might be under siege and can not at all understand the feeling you described that your mother was under attack. I have no mother, no home and no country in that respect. I am a human being among human beings, prefer to associate with like minded people and don't feel threatened by those who look or act or think differently as long as they don't invade other's right to do the same. i do not see them repressing the West. i do see some repressing their own people, buit that is a whole other chapter and not neccessarily a case for the colonial police.

At first I was amazed at the alliance between the Left and Islam. For the Left are atheist and Islam is theist. And when the jihad succeeds, they will turn on each other.

Until it rang a bell, and that bell was the Molotov-Ribintrop Pact. An unlikey pact between two violent, totalitarian States, that were soon at each other's throats.

And so the alliance between the Left and Islam is an alliance against a common enemy, liberal democracy, just as the Molotov-Ribintrop Pact was also an alliance of convenience against the common enemy of liberal democracy.
 

Thalassa

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At first I was amazed at the alliance between the Left and Islam. For the Left are atheist and Islam is theist. And when the jihad succeeds, they will turn on each other.

Until it rang a bell, and that bell was the Molotov-Ribintrop Pact. An unlikey pact between two violent, totalitarian States, that were soon at each other's throats.

And so the alliance between the Left and Islam is an alliance against a common enemy, liberal democracy, just as the Molotov-Ribintrop Pact was also an alliance of convenience against the common enemy of liberal democracy.

No silly it's something much less malicious than that. It's just that the Left tends to have a philosophy of tolerance and diversity, so of course they're going to defend people's right to be culturally or socially different as long as they aren't hurting anybody.

Jeez.

Of course, I think some liberals go too far with it. I don't love Islam any more than I love Christianity. And frankly, there are things I don't like about Islamic or Arabic culture in general...then again, that could be an aesthetic preference. One of my sisters finds Arabic culture absolutely fascinating while I've always kind of liked Russian culture. I don't like the way they treat their women I'll tell you that much.

But this isn't some blind devotion to linking two totalitarian ideologies or some insane shit like that. Mostly it's Liberals trying to get crazy conservative wackos to stop hating people on the basis of their cultural upbringing. All Muslims aren't fucking terrorists.
 

Thalassa

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:rolli:

In modern times, they are not even remotely as dangerous as radical Muslims; hell, there have been more murders of abortion doctors on Law&Order than there has ever been in real-life America.

Edit: here are some statistics from a quick internet search (obviously, these are both heavily biased sources).

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/history_extreme.asp

http://www.danielpipes.org/5723/which-has-more-islamist-terrorism-europe-or-america

So, like, you know that the only reasons Christians aren't as violent and dangerous as they once were is because here in the West we live in a culture with science, technology, and enlightenment.

Frankly I think the only reasons modern extremist Christians are less dangerous than extremist Muslims, if they are, I don't know, Christian cults do exist bro...is because they live in a culture that allows atheism and science...it's not because Christianity is better than Islam.
 
A

Anew Leaf

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I am pretty convinced that the only means of world peace will come via a 3rd party.

Call that 3rd party whatever you want:
  • Ebola
  • Elfboy
  • An Asteroid
  • Aliens
  • God finally getting sick of people
  • or Dinosaurs running amuck from Jurassic Park
 

Mole

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No silly it's something much less malicious than that. It's just that the Left tends to have a philosophy of tolerance and diversity, so of course they're going to defend people's right to be culturally or socially different as long as they aren't hurting anybody.

I am referring to the marxist, totalitarian Left.

Since the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 they know they have no chance of gaining State power alone, so they have allied themselves with the another totalitarian group who seek to replace liberal democracy with totalitarian Islam.

What the totalitarian Left and totalitarian Islam have in common is hatred of liberal democracy.
 

Red Herring

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At first I was amazed at the alliance between the Left and Islam. For the Left are atheist and Islam is theist. And when the jihad succeeds, they will turn on each other.

Until it rang a bell, and that bell was the Molotov-Ribintrop Pact. An unlikey pact between two violent, totalitarian States, that were soon at each other's throats.

And so the alliance between the Left and Islam is an alliance against a common enemy, liberal democracy, just as the Molotov-Ribintrop Pact was also an alliance of convenience against the common enemy of liberal democracy.

I am referring to the marxist, totalitarian Left.

Since the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989 they know they have no chance of gaining State power alone, so they have allied themselves with the another totalitarian group who seek to replace liberal democracy with totalitarian Islam.

What the totalitarian Left and totalitarian Islam have in common is hatred of liberal democracy.

You put the first quote under my post and wrote the second one when Marmie explained to you that what she and I consider a left or liberal position has nothing to do with being an enemy of the West and a lot with actually practicing the (western!) value of tolerence and respect for cultural diversity, at least whithin reasonable limits.

What then were you trying to say? It was either a complete non sequitur (but then why quote by clicking the reply button?) or it was a direct reply and therefor an insinuation (rather than an open statement) that this is what you assume I think. And that, I'm sorry, is blatently false.

There are more than three civilizations and there are more than two positions on this supposed war of civilizations you are so often referring to. There are very few marxists left in the world. I am most definitely not one of them. I have one or two marxist friends who can vouch for that :biggrin:

Basically, my position here is very close to Marmie's, so there is no need to repeat it

Instead I want to add one more thing about your claim about the radical left. While the radical left (that I do not consider myself a part of) in, say, France or Spain tends to side with the Palastinians against Israel (partially because the underpriviledged in the French and Spanish society are often of Arabic origin and they see it as a form of post colonialist struggle of rich vs poor) and therefor feels a certain solidarity with what they see as a cultural circle suffering from poverty and both inside and outside repression, much of that rooting in or fostered by the West and its history and pilicies, the radical left in Germany is more or less evenly split between those who share their Mediterranean friend's position that this is David vs Goliath and those who say that if you are on the left, you are anti-fascist and if you are anti-fascist you support Israel and if you support Israel, Islam is your enemy. So there is a considerable fraction in the German radical left that is very strongly and violently anti-Islam.

Just for your information.

I myself, both with the war of civilizations and with Palastine, refuse to clearly take sides because I see too many factors and too many shades of grey but strongly resent anybody trying to push me one way or the other or, worst of all, putting me into a box that doesn't fit.

Which is what you seem to have done.
 

Edgar

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I'd like to see a religion where prayer isn't possible. And I don't understand why you are so resistant to the idea. Studies have shown that prayer increases the likelyhood of recovering from major surgery, so students could dedicate the prayers to sick people in genuine need. Even the so-called "moral atheists" - if they exist - would give in and pray if it helped.

Studies have also shown that atheists, on average, have higher IQ than religious people.
Therefore, I think that atheism should be taught in schools to increase childrens' intelligence.
 

Thalassa

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Studies have also shown that atheists, on average, have higher IQ than religious people.
Therefore, I think that atheism should be taught in schools to increase childrens' intelligence.

Is it that teaching children athiesm makes them more intelligent, or just that more intelligent people question the validity of religious teachings?
 
A

Anew Leaf

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Studies show people are often prone to answering with that.

*silently observes gauntlet being tossed on the ground in slow-motion*

I would consider myself spiritual over being religious per se. I am personally a much happier person today than I was a few years ago, and a big piece of that has been incorporating prayer and thankfulness into my daily life.
 
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