Prayer in school

[Giggly]

What would happen if we started using public funds for private, religious-based schools?

 

[esidebill]

What would happen if we started using public funds for private, religious-based schools?

Then they wouldn't be so private would they ;p

 

[Giggly]

Then they wouldn't be so private would they ;p

Yes, of course, but what if that were the case? Why don't we (the U.S.) do that now?

 

[Xyk]

Yes, of course, but what if that were the case? Why don't we (the U.S.) do that now?

We have those, and we call them public schools. They are not religious because that would violate the separation of church and state. We have neither the money or the need to fund private schools. Private schools are, for the most part, better funded than public schools. Any federal or state money that would go to a private school would be better spent in a public school that needs it desperately. Public schools need the money. Additionally, anyone who doesn't feel like their private school is funded well enough has the option to go to a public school.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Wouldn't religious education be part of the curriculum at a religious school? Generally you would want that since you're paying for it.

What if the quality of the education at the religious school was the most important factor for the parents (regardless of it's religious nature)?

 

[ceecee]

What if the quality of the education at the religious school was the most important factor for the parents (regardless of it's religious nature)?

That was my parents' thought when they sent me to Catholic school.

 

[Giggly]

We have those, and we call them public schools. They are not religious because that would violate the separation of church and state. We have neither the money or the need to fund private schools. Private schools are, for the most part, better funded than public schools. Any federal or state money that would go to a private school would be better spent in a public school that needs it desperately. Public schools need the money. Additionally, anyone who doesn't feel like their private school is funded well enough has the option to go to a public school.

I get that. I am simply asking questions to encourage discussion.
Why do we even separate the church and state?

 

[esidebill]

I get that. I am simply asking questions to encourage discussion.
Why do we even separate the church and state?

Historically speaking, politics and religion have never worked quite well together.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

That was my parents' thought when they sent me to Catholic school.

Yea we have a few exceptional religious schools in my hometown, and I know more than a few who went to them.

More often than not the decision hinged on the quality of the education.

 

[ceecee]

Yea we have a few exceptional religious schools in my hometown, and know more than a few who went to them.

More often than not the decision hinged on the quality of the education.

My dad isn't Catholic, my mom is but we were not a strongly observant family. This was Detroit in the 1970's. Public school was absolutely not an option.

 

[Giggly]

Historically speaking, politics and religion have never worked quite well together.

The question is, why? Therein lies the answer to the OP.

 

[esidebill]

The question is, why? Therein lies the answer to the OP.

It's fairly easy to just say religion has different view points than our curriculum. The most common issue most have seen is with the creationism topic. Now that is only one example in a very small area. Think of it in another case. A king rules a land and the people in the land must give 10% of their funds to the king and 10% of their wealth to God. Now, lets say that these people aren't exactly so keen on the idea of God, but are being forced to pay for something they don't believe in. Right away you have this conflict of religion. Not every person believes in the same God either. So the king has to be specific on which God he's talking about. Now that we have a bunch of angry peasants, they revolt because the king is taking their money for a God that not everyone shares the same feelings for. They'd gladly pay for the local watermill to be fixed, but no so gladly pay to support some spiritual force they don't care for. Now you can say, what about the people who don't even care about the watermill? Well, once they notice how bad it is without the watermill, they eventually fix it. You can't prove that paying for God will improve your society, but paying for that watermill can.

 

[Coriolis]

What would happen if we started using public funds for private, religious-based schools?

We do. In certain areas with horrible public schools, families can get vouchers to pay for private/religious schools using public funds. See example below.

http://articles.cnn.com/2002-06-27/justice/scotus.school.vouchers_1_school-voucher-program-milwaukee-and-florida-parochial-school-tuition?_s=PM:LAW

Of course! You can't possibly form values and morals without a WWJD bracelet on.

I haven't seen that slogan in ages, perhaps since even those who promoted it found it far too hard to live up to.

 

[Habba]

In Finland, until 2003, religion was being teached mandatorily if you belonged to a religious organization (and Lutheranism has long roots in Finland, so about 85-90% belong to that organization), and if you didn't, you had a permission to request for ethics class instead. In order to pass, you had to pray and sing hymns and study the bible. I recall once writing on one exam that "What if Jesus wasn't real?" and had some logical argument to support that. Teacher didn't like that, and gave me the worst grade in my whole life. So, if you didn't believe in God, you had to be wise enough not to say it out loud, or you risk failing the class, and therefore, whole grade.

Also, during holidays (Christmas, easter, etc.) we had to go to a church and attend to a ceremony there.

But luckily after 2003 it has been taught more as a history than a religion. Pupils are being told how the Christianity (and other religions) work, but they don't have to learn how to pray or sing hymns. And they always have the choice to pick some other religion than Christianity, or study ethics.

I'd love to see all of the religion out of the school, and have Church take care of all religious education on their own funding, rather than use public funding.

And what was said about prayers having positive effect on surgeries: Dealing with stress and emotional distress is what's currently the least concentrated area of recovery in western medicine. Studies show that stress levels have a correlation to the success of operations and recovery. Patients are quite often afraid of the surgery, having their stress levels increased, and thus hindering their recovery, or causing complications during the operation. On some people, prayers have an effect of relieving the stress, as they can feel that someone is looking after them. But it should be the doctors and nurses who would take care of the patient, rather than God, because they are more likely to intervene when things go bad. It's Man's responsibility to take care of one another, not God's. So let's toss God out of the window and start taking responsiblity ourselves. I think the mankind is old enough to become an adult.

And to express my feelings towards religion, see:
[YOUTUBE="P4dSiHqpULk"]Your faith is a joke[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Viridian]

In Finland, until 2003, religion was being teached mandatorily if you belonged to a religious organization (and Lutheranism has long roots in Finland, so about 85-90% belong to that organization), and if you didn't, you had a permission to request for ethics class instead. In order to pass, you had to pray and sing hymns and study the bible. I recall once writing on one exam that "What if Jesus wasn't real?" and had some logical argument to support that. Teacher didn't like that, and gave me the worst grade in my whole life. So, if you didn't believe in God, you had to be wise enough not to say it out loud, or you risk failing the class, and therefore, whole grade.

Also, during holidays (Christmas, easter, etc.) we had to go to a church and attend to a ceremony there.

But luckily after 2003 it has been taught more as a history than a religion. Pupils are being told how the Christianity (and other religions) work, but they don't have to learn how to pray or sing hymns. And they always have the choice to pick some other religion than Christianity, or study ethics.

That's funny... I thought Scandinavia was very secular/irreligious as a whole. That's what I've been told, anyway.

 

[Lark]

I recently had a discussion with a friend regarding this hot potato, but what do you think of having a mandatory few minutes of prayer in school?
Personally, I am a supporter of this, if you go to a religious school. I believe we get many of our good morals from religion. This means that if children of atheistic parents have no contact with religion in their formative years there's a very high risk of them growing up to become antisocial individuals with dangerous values,

Yeah, we had that at school, never enjoyed it but then I never enjoyed assembly either, especially not at primary school when it was frankly a terrifying experience and put me off large gatherings of that kind too.

Although I often dont get the liberal or secular outrage and hatred that it can provoke. I know that there wouldnt be the same reaction if the discussion was about meditation, yoga or therapy in schools.

 

[esidebill]

Yeah, we had that at school, never enjoyed it but then I never enjoyed assembly either, especially not at primary school when it was frankly a terrifying experience and put me off large gatherings of that kind too.

Although I often dont get the liberal or secular outrage and hatred that it can provoke. I know that there wouldnt be the same reaction if the discussion was about meditation, yoga or therapy in schools.

All of which, except maybe therapy, are pretty religious so to speak... or spiritual in the politically friendly term. Yoga and all these types of "eastern cures for everything" are such a prevailing force in America at the moment. Typical fad dieting. You can imagine how many guys might hate to sit through a yoga class. No one wins with these forced extra programs.

 

[Lark]

All of which, except maybe therapy, are pretty religious so to speak... or spiritual in the politically friendly term. Yoga and all these types of "eastern cures for everything" are such a prevailing force in America at the moment. Typical fad dieting. You can imagine how many guys might hate to sit through a yoga class. No one wins with these forced extra programs.

I see that as part and parcel of a society attracted by novelty, replacing God with Odd, eventually there'll be people rail against meditation as oppressive and wrong the way they do pledges or prayer now.

There are forms of therapy which do resemble religious faith, the higher power ones for instance.

 

[esidebill]

I see that as part and parcel of a society attracted by novelty, replacing God with Odd, eventually there'll be people rail against meditation as oppressive and wrong the way they do pledges or prayer now.

There are forms of therapy which do resemble religious faith, the higher power ones for instance.

OK yea, like "divine interventions" right? I hate the novelty bandwagon moms. Ugh.

 

[Habba]

That's funny... I thought Scandinavia was very secular/irreligious as a whole. That's what I've been told, anyway.

In Finland, religion/faith is very private matter, and it's rarely openly discussed. There's little difference between finnish culture and lutherian culture anyways, as finnish culture began thriving only after swedish crusades around 12th centuary.
There's also a huge christian cross in all of the nordic flags, but people don't usually associate it with religion for some reason.

Interestingly, at the age of 15 it's very common for a teenager to receive confirmation. Again, it's not considered to be a religious thing but rather a rite of passage closer to adulthood. And they get lots of presents out of it.

The way I see it, people don't generally really care about religion, but aren't bothered by either. It's like a neighbour we don't really know but say "Hi!" everytime we see each others.

But lately there was a huge outcry because of church's conservative views on gay marriages. There was a flame wars all over the media which lead to mass resigns (yearly about 40k people resign from church, but due to that debate, the number doubled).

All in all, Finland is very ISFJish country. We rarely complain about how things are, we just accept them and do our best to cope with whatever comes.