Atheists:

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I and my ego are not angered by the fact that we are made up of simple matter. I am not sure about what kind of combination you are talking.

You're also atheist.

 

[Nicodemus]

You're also atheist.

But I am human too.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

But I am human too.

But your ego is not infused with the idea that it should be better than everything else, which is essentially what having a soul means compared to every other living being.

 

[Nicodemus]

But your ego is not infused with the idea that it should be better than everything else, which is essentially what having a soul means compared to every other living being.

That does answer your question, does it not?

 

[A window to the soul]

What exactly is "the unseen"? This sounds kind of nebulous.

I was referring to the spiritual realm [and God] when I mentioned "the unseen."

1) What do you mean by "open" and why are you putting in quote marks?

By "open," I mean "receptive." My usage of quotation marks is for emphasis.

2) What exactly do you mean by your "heart" finding him? This is ambiguous.

How does one love, if their heart is closed? When one does love, how does one explain to their head what their heart knows?

There's so much more to this life beyond the human psyche. I know from experience that where my psyche ends by willfully deferring, God's spirit may begin. That's the best way I know to describe it for you, since a relationship with God is that of the heart and not of the mind. It is a journey of discovery, which neither I nor anybody else can do for you. As I indicated earlier, everybody must do their own exploration. If you remain steadfast in your search to find the truth, I trust you'll eventually find it and you'll have no doubts when you do. Don't give up.

I have read it in it's entirety and the only reason Elfboy's particular brand of theism makes sense to you is because he chooses to share the same base tenet of your own particular brand of theism. I would put serious money that his version of Christianity vastly differs from yours.

Is that really the only reason? Take a moment to think about it. Otherwise, it's quite presumptuous and brave to place bets before you've looked at your cards. I'm very clear on the fact that things aren't always what they seem to be. Are you?

 

[Haven]

I think the world would be better if everyone stopped shoving their religions down each others throats. If everyone needs to stop believing in a god for that to happen (which is what it means to be an atheist) then yes, I think that it would be a better place if everyone, or most people, were atheists. However, I'm not about to start shoving my lack of religion down anyone's throat because that would be contributing to the problem, not solving it. Imagining a world without religion scares a lot of people and it should be atheists duty to put those fears to rest.

 

[A window to the soul]

I think the world would be better if everyone stopped shoving their religions down each others throats. If everyone needs to stop believing in a god for that to happen (which is what it means to be an atheist) then yes, I think that it would be a better place if everyone, or most people, were atheists. However, I'm not about to start shoving my lack of religion down anyone's throat because that would be contributing to the problem, not solving it. Imagining a world without religion scares a lot of people and it should be atheists duty to put those fears to rest.

I see the fun in this. I know you and I live in the same world where there are a lot of religions, but I haven't noticed anyone force feeding me religion, lolz, but then I'm not easy to force feed. When the Mormons come to my door, I enjoy a friendly debate over iced tea. They stopped coming by. :C

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I see the fun in this. I know you and I live in the same world where there are a lot of religions, but I haven't noticed anyone force feeding me religion, lolz, but then I'm not easy to force feed. When the Mormons come to my door, I enjoy a friendly debate over iced tea. They stopped coming by. :C

I think most are stuck in the past on this subject. I mean 400 hundred years may not be much compared to the earth, it is to a human. I think there is a movement beginning even in more devote religions like Baptism going towards openness. In the bible belt I say this and I know here it is still taboo to believe that something like this is actually occurring and I do not mean to say that everything is changing and that everything that is changing is changing for the better, but the fact that something is changing means it can be changed.

Yes religion is scary and illogical (in some senses of the word), but I think a truer interpretation of what the bible stand for is starting to shine through.

/rose colored glasses

I'm supporting you btw... I just wanted you to know .

 

[Nicodemus]

I think a truer interpretation of what the bible stand for is starting to shine through.

A truth behind truth, a convention-independent symbol, an ethereal way of becoming visible: I smell obscuration.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

A truth behind truth, a convention-independent symbol, an ethereal way of becoming visible: I smell obscuration.

Perhaps I didn't word that correctly. It should be more like: The more universal qualities of the bible are being taught more and more, and the ignorance that once fueled Christian religions is being washed away by those who show extreme intolerance for such equality.

 

[Nicodemus]

Perhaps I didn't word that correctly. It should be more like: The more universal qualities of the bible are being taught more and more, and the ignorance that once fueled Christian religions is being washed away by those who show extreme intolerance for such equality.

I think what you call universal qualities of the Bible are merely contemporary interpretations of it. They will be different 100 years in the future, as they were different 100 years in the past.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

I think what you call universal qualities of the Bible are merely contemporary interpretations of it. They will be different 100 years in the future, as they were different 100 years in the past.

By universal I don't mean "all encompassing" in the sense that it surrounds, but that it cuts through. That singular thread of morality. I think that's coming to the surface. Interpretation of that thread will change as necessity sees fit, but it will always be within that core principle. It's not that the concept changes, but the object it is directed towards, because we aren't permanent.

That being said I don't disagree with you.

 

[Ginkgo]

I respect that, as long as you give yourself credit and are proud for the things you achieve and not God, I think its ok. I need by my own definition my coffee machine, without it I am only half-human half-troll

I give myself partial credit, and while I am sometimes proud I try not to be. Prideful attitudes are arguably accompanied by insecurities and despair. Despair when you take too much credit for the things you regret instead of letting go. My relationship with the Truth is one of both awareness and growing out of old habits, whether they be habits of regret, grudges, failures or accumulating too much information. Not letting go tends to cause cognitive dissonance. Instead, I try to penetrate challenges as they come by acknowledging them for what they are in as pure an understanding as I can have; at least pure enough to determine what the best course of action is.

Usually, when one thinks of morality, they also think of trying to eradicate, or at least contain, immoral behavior. Attempting to change the truth is impossible. It is true that we are all born with an apparatus that allows us to create our own problems and overcome them as well. We overcome them by going through them and shifting the way we view them instead of trying to patch them up with some pretty band-aid.

When's the last time you saw an idea to change as aspect of reality that actually worked? They only serve to give us temporary happiness because we are proud of our supposed accomplishments.

 

[entropie]

I give myself partial credit, and while I am sometimes proud I try not to be. Prideful attitudes are arguably accompanied by insecurities and despair. Despair when you take too much credit for the things you regret instead of letting go. My relationship with the Truth is one of both awareness and growing out of old habits, whether they be habits of regret, grudges, failures or accumulating too much information. Not letting go tends to cause cognitive dissonance. Instead, I try to penetrate challenges as they come by acknowledging them for what they are in as pure an understanding as I can have; at least pure enough to determine what the best course of action is.

Usually, when one thinks of morality, they also think of trying to eradicate, or at least contain, immoral behavior. Attempting to change the truth is impossible. It is true that we are all born with an apparatus that allows us to create our own problems and overcome them as well. We overcome them by going through them and shifting the way we view them instead of trying to patch them up with some pretty band-aid.

When's the last time you saw an idea to change as aspect of reality that actually worked? They only serve to give us temporary happiness because we are proud of our supposed accomplishments.

You said that very well and I agree with everything except for the reality part. To me our reality is man made. Their may be natural laws ruling our Universe but since God cant be proven to be one of them, he falls into the other huge category which is peoples reality.

People invented religion, for a Christian its God, for a muslim its Allah, for a Hindu its Vishnu; you can see here that human reality always has the need to work towards a goal. This is our real reality and it was postulated by people like Descartes in the time of enlightenment that we need to recognize that we are shitting on ourselves.

You know, I am human like anyone else and when I had a hard time in my life, like having to write a tough exam, I sometimes had a talk with God for a second. It gave me strength to talk to him in that moment or it just relived my sorrows. I do not blame people for doing that as long as they recognize that the religious reality is a man made invention, just like our social reality, our economical and political systems, our technological and artistic creations. Without mankind our reality wouldnt exist.

Imagine you had a friend born blind, how could you ever explain to him the color blue ? And under that premise, you dont even know if that what we see thru our physical eyes, is the real world or if it may look completly different. Like for example that in reality no colors exist and everything is black and its only the surface of things that does reflect the light and appears to us as colors. Imo humans know as much about reality like worms now about spacetravel

 

[Ginkgo]

You said that very well and I agree with everything except for the reality part. To me our reality is man made. Their may be natural laws ruling our Universe but since God cant be proven to be one of them, he falls into the other huge category which is peoples reality.

People invented religion, for a Christian its God, for a muslim its Allah, for a Hindu its Vishnu; you can see here that human reality always has the need to work towards a goal. This is our real reality and it was postulated by people like Descartes in the time of enlightenment that we need to recognize that we are shitting on ourselves.

You know, I am human like anyone else and when I had a hard time in my life, like having to write a tough exam, I sometimes had a talk with God for a second. It gave me strength to talk to him in that moment or it just relived my sorrows. I do not blame people for doing that as long as they recognize that the religious reality is a man made invention, just like our social reality, our economical and political systems, our technological and artistic creations. Without mankind our reality wouldnt exist.

Imagine you had a friend born blind, how could you ever explain to him the color blue ? And under that premise, you dont even know if that what we see thru our physical eyes, is the real world or if it may look completly different. Like for example that in reality no colors exist and everything is black and its only the surface of things that does reflect the light and appears to us as colors. Imo humans know as much about reality like worms now about spacetravel

One cannot have intellectual honesty without asserting that they believe in something they hold to be true. If one asserts denial, they not only contradict their line of reasoning, but also willfully cut themselves off from reality. I suspect that most people who assert denial secretly indulge in belief of some sort.

Part of understanding the truth is also understanding others' perspectives and interpretations of the truth. We're all in this together. Pride keeps us from understanding others; even if we disagree with them we can also agree to disagree after understanding why they believe what they believe. That is only respectful and loving the same way you would want to be loved, I would hope.

Certainly a blind man has his own perspective on things; each of us has a personal awareness of a higher reality than ourselves. We turn ugly when we assert our reality is the highest - that is egocentrism. Even worms have access to things never before seen by humans.

I think understand where you are coming from. I've had the exact same thoughts. I think our highest goal, as a group of people in harmony, is first and foremost understanding, because without understanding we can't understand our goals.

 

[Totenkindly]

I see the fun in this. I know you and I live in the same world where there are a lot of religions, but I haven't noticed anyone force feeding me religion, lolz, but then I'm not easy to force feed. When the Mormons come to my door, I enjoy a friendly debate over iced tea. They stopped coming by. :C

I used to do that too. Same results.
But I did learn a lot about their witnessing strategy and what parts of the Bible they knew little about.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are cute. I was shoveling out my car once two winters ago, all by myself -- it was buried on the street -- and watched them coming down the block, going door to door while people were stuck in their houses. They must have been young, in the mid-20's. (Well, to me, now, that's young.) I could tell they were watching me the whole time, thinking, "Oh, gee, there's a poor woman struggling to get her car cleared off; we don't feel like helping, but God wants us to help people; we should just do the right thing, but we don't want to and aren't sure what to do!" I just kept shoveling.

Finally they got to me, said hi, and one of them extended a very hesitant offer to help. Unfortunately for me, at that point, they had taken their sweet old time and I had basically shoveled everything I needed to in order to get out, so I just thanked them for offering. I wasn't really annoyed or anything, I had found it just good-naturedly funny because I just KNEW what was going through their heads and then was watching struggle with it.

Is that a tangent? Or am I just pushing this conversation into the more practical realms? I think it's ironic that, whatever beliefs we have, in the end to me it really comes down to whether you consider other people to be within your own ego boundaries and thus worth contributing to or else you just continue to go through life business as usual. I don't really care whether it's an atheist or a religious person, all I really see in the end is how they live and what choices they make. People are not omniscient; our knowledge will always be partial, and sometimes even wrong. But our range of choices doesn't really change, and our actions can be the same regardless.