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Faith vs. Logic

Nocapszy

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I would argue that logic deals with the intangible.
It does. If it's tangible, it's logical. Just because we've not found the logic supporting it doesn't mean it's not logical. If it exists, there's logic. If it doesn't, belief in its existence is defined as faith.
 

reason

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It does. If it's tangible, it's logical. Just because we've not found the logic supporting it doesn't mean it's not logical. If it exists, there's logic. If it doesn't, belief in its existence is defined as faith.
Sense that make does not.
 

zarc

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Nocapszy said:
Just because we've not found the logic supporting it doesn't mean it's not logical.

Sounds like a statement of "faith."

I wouldn't think that it's a statement of faith or that it doesn't make sense (as said by nocturne w/o arguing as to why it didn't make sense :blink:--). I see it as there's the possibility of the logic existing but it's yet to be defined/proven. Someone is or may be trying to define it because they have the existing tools to do so. Or they create the tools, if possible, to do so. They make a claim and then they research to find the proof with those tools, even if others discount their claim as impossible because they don't understand yet. They may not succeed right away. Eventually, it's found. They provide the support behind their logic/argument to others. If they've given up and no one picks up after them, it just remains an unproven possibility with little or no support behind it.

If you want to prove 'faith', you'd have to create the tools before defining it. Which is the problem with faith, being subjective. There is no objective existing tools nor were there pre-existing ones thousands of years ago. There's just a definition unsupported by objective logic. Not a problem for those who believe and just claim 'faith' as their reasoning.. I have a problem with people who thrust it onto others and with people who refuse to be open that they may be wrong (this goes both ways, even to atheists who refuse they may be wrong too. But I'd sooner rely on them--) because they aren't trying to be objective or critical of their 'faith'. It's usually just a given-- . I'd be open to the possibility that it could be proven if there were the tools and then the steps taken to prove it... but I doubt that will be done, or in our life time.

If I've understood Nocaps, anyway. If not, carry on, peoples. Carry on.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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I think it's true that faith and logic are at odds. It will depend to some extent on how you define "faith," but in general, faith is needed when you can't otherwise prove something. That proof doesn't have to come by way of traditional scientific method, but the scientific method is a good way to preserve reliability, accuracy (validity) and reduce error. That method is rooted in logic (or skepticism, its cousin). If you were able to prove god's existence with reliability, would there be any need for faith in god? Or if you could prove that a certain military strategy would elicit favorable results, would you need faith in that strategy?
 

Nocapszy

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Edahn it took longer to type that than it would have been to type the real thing.

Why is everyone trying to negate my point?

If it's real, it makes sense. That's what logic is. Making sense of what is real. If you don't understand that...
:shock:

Wow.
 

Nocapszy

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I think it's true that faith and logic are at odds. It will depend to some extent on how you define "faith," but in general, faith is needed when you can't otherwise prove something. That proof doesn't have to come by way of traditional scientific method, but the scientific method is a good way to preserve reliability, accuracy (validity) and reduce error. That method is rooted in logic (or skepticism, its cousin). If you were able to prove god's existence with reliability, would there be any need for faith in god? Or if you could prove that a certain military strategy would elicit favorable results, would you need proof in that strategy?

If it's proven, faith can't enter the scenario.

And don't anyone try the "well you have faith in logic" crap. That's not faith.
 

Kiddo

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As far as I can tell, faith is inseparable from logic and vice versa. I've always felt that faith is just the confidence people put in something being true. People have to have some confidence in something in this world being true or they would go insane. People have to put faith in logic, which is simply the ability to reason from perceptions. But since people's perceptions can be wrong, people's logic can be wrong. Thankfully science and other systems of methodology correct for a lot of the error in human perceptions, but it is still possible to derive incorrect knowledge. Therefore people accept the knowledge derived from science and logic, on faith. Faith on the other hand, is derived from logic. People reasoned at one point there is a God, and since no one has been able to prove it isn't true, people can continue to accept that original logic on faith. To me, they just seem like two sides to the same coin.
 

Mempy

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As far as I can tell, faith is inseparable from logic and vice versa. I've always felt that faith is just the confidence people put in something being true.

This is what I was thinking. I was going to respond by saying that there is more than one definition of "faith." Night's definition of faith supports his theory, but it doesn't mean there aren't other definitions. Another valid definition of faith is simply confidence that something is true or reliable, in which case it's quite possible to have faith in anything, even logic. There are definitions of faith that have nothing to do with why or how it emerges.

But I liked Nemo's post a lot because, for one thing, it illustrated the likelihood that every person's brain follows a universal pattern of logic (excepting people who have mental illnesses). People's minds do follow a universal pattern of logic, I think. I don't think a person can come to a conclusion that doesn't use the process of logic and deductive reasoning, as Nemo illustrated in his post.

The way I see it, even feelings are logical, because all feelings arise from perception. In that sense, I suppose thought comes first, and then feeling. For example, if you are feeling pain in a certain situation, for example when your lover doesn't call you for a few days, it may be a reality check that says you need to reassess your perception of the situation. Perhaps what caused your initial pain is the belief that, just for example, going more than a day without calling you means s/he's losing interest. You could have innumerable reasons for believing this, past experiences, books you've read, stories you've heard. Depending on your perception, you can come to almost any conclusion, accurate or innacurate. I like Nocturne's definition of logic: "[Logic concerns] what does or does not follow from particular statements or propositions."

If all beliefs arise through logic, then by Night's definition of faith, faith does not exist. Everything we have faith in, we arrive at through a process of logical reasoning and deduction.

Nemo's post illustrated it beautifully. Anything can be true to a person if they can reason their way to that conclusion, even 4=5. The logic may have holes in it, it may be inaccurate, it may be based on false perceptions or false axioms, but it's still logic; maybe not the scientific process, but logic nonetheless. Even 4=5 can be true with the right logic. No person with a normal brain would think 4 equals 5 without having a reason for it, and as Nemo depicted there are infinite ways to reason one's way to that conclusion, all of which can be true.

Thankfully science and other systems of methodology correct for a lot of the error in human perceptions, but it is still possible to derive incorrect knowledge.

I think that's a good point.

I see it as there's the possibility of the logic existing but it's yet to be defined/proven.

Kind of like there's a possibility that god could exist but it's yet to be proven?
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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As far as I can tell, faith is inseparable from logic and vice versa. I've always felt that faith is just the confidence people put in something being true.

In that case, you may have a different definition from some of the scientific-leaning posters in this thread. I would say that the source of the confidence is where faith comes in, or doesn't. When dealing with a reliable, scientific (scrutinized) theory, the source of the confidence is observation, repeatability, and deduction (the process). When dealing with things that cannot be proven, because of the way they are constructed ("you can't see god") or because of a dearth of data (string theory?), the source of one's confidence is intuition/hope/feelings/superstition, none of which can be assessed for reliability. The former is called "proof;" the latter is called "faith."

People have to have some confidence in something in this world being true or they would go insane. People have to put faith in logic, which is simply the ability to reason from perceptions. But since people's perceptions can be wrong, people's logic can be wrong.

I think the amount of "faith" you need in logic depends on what you think logic really is. (I'm using my definition of faith here, not yours.) If you understand logic as a system by which patterns in our observations repeat and stay constant, the confidence comes from observation, not from superstition or "faith."

While it's true that people's perceptions can be inaccurate, logic only claims to work within these perception, flawed or not. You can make an analogy to lock picking. (Bear with me.) If someone screws around with your lock (perceptions), you adjust the lock pick. No one would claim that their lock pick will open all future/other locks, they would just claim that this pick works for this lock. If you fix your lock, you adjust the pick. In the same way, one doesn't need faith in logic because logic isn't intended to work with all future perceptions, just the perceptions we currently have.

As an aside, I find it amusing that you use logic to cast doubt on logic. :)

Thankfully science and other systems of methodology correct for a lot of the error in human perceptions, but it is still possible to derive incorrect knowledge. Therefore people accept the knowledge derived from science and logic, on faith.

Seems like this would still be a problem, since science is based on logic. I still disagree for the reasons set forth, though.

Faith on the other hand, is derived from logic. People reasoned at one point there is a God, and since no one has been able to prove it isn't true, people can continue to accept that original logic on faith. To me, they just seem like two sides to the same coin.

To me, this is really a perversion of logic, not a derivation. I think by "original logic" you mean "original argument" based on logic. Either way, people who believe things because they can't be DISproven are in fact rejecting logic, not embracing it. To fully embrace the principle (and logic) that that which cannot be proven can/must exist would lead one to believe in all unfalsifiable theories like fairies and leprechauns.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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There is no dicotomy between logic and faith. Furthermore while one can apply faith without logic, one cannot apply logic without faith.

This is because logic is a process. It is a method of concluding B given A. Without an A one will never be able to reach conclusion B. Where does A come from? Well it can come from other logical conclusions, but ultimately one must have a starting place before logic is applied. One must believe in A without having concluded it logically. Therefore faith is not in opposition to logic, but rather is a necessary ally.

Philosphers are among the most rigorously logical (much more rigorous in their logic than even scientists), and yet each one comes to very different conclusions than the one before him. This is because each uses different initial assumptions. Each has a different faith to start from. And furthermore one must start from a point of faith to reach any conclusion. To not have faith in anything is to not know anything.
 

Nocapszy

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There is a dichotomy between logic and faith.

The faith you speak of is the faith a human has to put in his ability to create a logical progression.

Logic is infallible. People are not.

The opinion that faith is required to accept logic is usually held by those who can't follow a logical progression.
 

Nocapszy

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To not have faith in anything is to not know anything.

Knowledge and logic are not connected to one another either.

Those who don't abuse logic know it's to be based on assumptions, without necessarily accepting them as true, only using them to fit an end. If the end fits the progression and the empirical data, then you have a fact.

Facts, are held in faith. Logic is not.
 

Kiddo

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I guess a lot of it really does come down to definitions.

Logic accepts that the only source of knowledge available is what is derived from our experience, namely our perceptions. So the knowledge derived from logic can only be as good as the perceptions it is based upon. That means logic is simply a faith in consistency. For faith is what we believe must be true, and logic holds that what is repeatedly observed must be true.

Held separately, neither logic nor faith makes sense since you need to believe in your observations in order reason from them, while you also need logic to provide some systematic explanation of faith.
 

Nocapszy

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But they're not actually the same thing. Roll your eyes all you want. Just because you used logic to find a fact, doesn't mean that you use logic to hold the knowledge.

Faith takes care of that, if you must extort the meaning out of the word.
 

elfinchilde

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Perhaps logic is articulated reasoning, while faith is inarticulate reasoning.

It's the difference between classical physics, and quantum and chaos theories. The first holds the idea that everything is known and its patterns can be deduced. The second hold the idea that there will be unknown constants, and while the main patterns can be deduced, the rest will remain uncertain.

Are we splitting hairs here? Because in the end: what is the ultimate purpose of faith and logic?

If the means of arrival differ, but the destination is the same, dare I say then that the means do not matter as long as the method works?

food for thought.
 
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