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Would YOU kill the baby?

Would YOU kill the baby?


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MacGuffin

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If you had Tourette's syndrome and could not stop an outburst attack, would you kill yourself?

What would you do if it was only you and the crying baby?
 
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figsfiggyfigs

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If you had Tourette's syndrome and could not stop an outburst attack, would you kill yourself?

What would you do if it was only you and the crying baby?

I wouldn't be hiding under the floor boards. I'd be a jungle person, I'd even name him Tarzan..


In that sort of situation, there is a 1/1 ratio. It's not "for the greater good", and I'd probably take the risk.
 

CrystalViolet

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I was thinking along the same lines as Oakysage, however I know I can be very pragmatic when the chips are down and survival instincts kick in, so I have a sneaking suspicion I could kill it if I needed to, and justify it (along the lines of what kind of life would it have had, if it lived?) in my head. If I survived, I'd be eaten alive with guilt, but I'd make damn well sure I did every thing I could to live to justify it. I wouldn't make some one else kill it either. My choice, my guilt. I'm pretty sure no-one would condemn me in the circumstances. They stood by and watched me after all.
 

Athenian200

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If you had Tourette's syndrome and could not stop an outburst attack, would you kill yourself?

Yes, of course. Or I would ask the others to kill me.
What would you do if it was only you and the crying baby?

I'd like to say that I wouldn't kill the baby in that situation, but part of me thinks it might actually be emotionally easier to kill the baby with no witnesses. I would be very tempted. Assuming my instincts didn't take over, I might consider coming out of the cellar, and trying to distract the Nazis from killing the baby. Now, if the baby is definitely going to die either way, I might just decide to kill both the baby and myself, so that the Nazis don't get the satisfaction of doing so themselves. I'm pretty sure they'd enjoy it too much.

So basically, chances are that I would do it at first to save myself, realize I couldn't live with it, and then kill myself. I think I could live with it if I did it save others, but not if I just did it to save myself.
 

erm

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Realistically I would probably panic trying to calculate the odds of the Nazi's finding us with and without the baby.

I mean, there's the odds the Nazis won't come to the house. Quite high if I remember my history right. Then there's the odds the Nazis will find us anyway, even if I kill the baby, and the odds they wouldn't find us if I didn't.

What I should be left with is the difference between the odds of group survival with and without the babies death. I'd take that number and multiply it by the sum of estimations of "how long each surviving member of the group would live if they got through this", "how happy they would be each minute of that time", "how happy they would make others" and "how much happiness they will create in future generations".

I probably wouldn't finish the calculation in time.

tl:dr: I'd try and calculate which option has the most potential happiness after it. Failing that, I'd act on instinct. I don't know what my instincts would do.

EDIT: Oh, and the odds the Nazis would show mercy. Probably higher with a baby. I sometimes forget they weren't actually cartoonishly evil.
 

ayoitsStepho

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Well. If I have learned anything from this thread, is that I'm never getting in a cellar with 12 of you.

+10.


Personally, if there's a chance that the Nazi's won't hear the crying baby, I'm not going to kill it. Even if the chances aren't in my favor. Either way, I'd be doing a whole lot of praying...
 

rav3n

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Fine, considerably worse from an outside, bottom line and/or utilitarian view: to wit: kill the baby = dead baby, guilty conscience. Let it live= Baby still dies, probably in a more agonizing fashion, along with many other people, possibly including other children.
Assumption once again. No one knows if the baby will cause everyone to be captured. No one knows if the Nazis will kill the baby in worse fashion. Perhaps they'll make it quick by shooting it which is most likely the case since Nazis were never known to waste time with human life that in their eyes, has no immediate gain to maintaining it.
 

Athenian200

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Perhaps they'll make it quick by shooting it which is most likely the case since Nazis were never known to waste time with human life that in their eyes, has no immediate gain to maintaining it.

No, the Nazi mentality was actually that they didn't want to waste bullets on Jewish people, but rather preferred to save them for the war. That's why they used the "showers" with the cheap Zyklon B poison when possible. They would also hang them, at times. Since a baby wouldn't put up a fight, they would be less likely to waste a bullet on it. They usually only had to shoot unruly prisoners who didn't go along quietly.
 

rav3n

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No, the Nazi mentality was actually that they didn't want to waste bullets on Jewish people, but rather preferred to save them for the war. That's why they used the "showers" with the cheap Zyklon B poison when possible. They would also hang them, at times. Since a baby wouldn't put up a fight, they would be less likely to waste a bullet on it. They usually only had to shoot unruly prisoners who didn't go along quietly.
We could go on and on about what might be possible, including how the baby might die but overall, it's all assumption that the baby crying will cause everyone to be captured.

Ethics/morality debates like this seriously annoy the hell outta' my Ni since there are so many other possibilities that don't require the situation to get to the proposed black and white decision point of kill or not. It's not too difficult to knock a baby unconscious to make it stop crying and while morally, it bothers me to hurt or harm a complete innocent, I'd be willing to do this in order to save other lives. But I draw the line at killing a complete innocent which is purely the underlying values that Fi sources. An emotional decision.
 
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Sniffles

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No, the Nazi mentality was actually that they didn't want to waste bullets on Jewish people, but rather preferred to save them for the war. That's why they used the "showers" with the cheap Zyklon B poison when possible. They would also hang them, at times. Since a baby wouldn't put up a fight, they would be less likely to waste a bullet on it. They usually only had to shoot unruly prisoners who didn't go along quietly.

Uhhhh....plenty of Jews were shot during the war. Ever hear of the Einsatzgruppen?
 

Athenian200

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Uhhhh....plenty of Jews were shot during the war. Ever hear of the Einsatzgruppen?

IIRC, that was a systematic murder of Polish people in order to get more living space, not Jews in particular, though some may have been Jews. Ironically, the German army complained about the program because they felt it lead to worsened military discipline, not because of any moral objection. LOL.

The Nazis didn't JUST kill Jews.
 

CrystalViolet

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Another thought...you could just leave the baby upstairs, or outside. The odds are they would show a lone and abondoned baby more mercy and compassion, plus it wouldn' t bring attention to the other people, and depending if it's day or night...let say it's night, it could be mistaken for a cat on heat, and quite likely ignored. It would be a chance worth taking.
 
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Sniffles

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If I understoof YWIR correctly, the SS soldiers haven't even entered the building first. So I guess one way to prevent them from entering is to get busy with one of the other adults. Apparently German soldiers would never enter a room or building if they thought the people inside were having sex; and I've heard stories about how when the Allies dropped spies behind lines, the first thing they did once they met with their contacts(like in the resistance movements) was to take off their clothes and have at it.
 

Curator

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doesnt mean they wont just wait till your done THEN come in :p,lollllll...
 
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Sniffles

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The Einsatzgruppen operated in Russia too and killed hundreds of thousands of Jews(around 300-400,000 I believe). Their exploits are actually far more well known than what the Einsatzgruppen did in Poland. There's the famous film, shot by a man in the Luftwaffe IIRC, showing these men at work - having Jews line up in a ditch and then shot. Actually there's plenty of film and photos of these units in action, but due to the forum rules I can't produce them here.

The Nazis didn't JUST kill Jews.

Yes I'm well aware of that, I've even discussed this before on this forum. I've been researching WWII for the past 17 years.
 
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