The Atheist's Worst Nightmare: The Banana

[HilbertSpace]

I wouldn't mind having one, except who would we get to argue the side of ID?

(I've read a book or two on it, but wouldn't consider myself an expert by any means.)

I can mod it, if you want, and keep things from getting out of hand on a personal level.

I don't know if we need anyone to argue the point of ID if we just discuss what some of the objections are to the current evolutionary paradigm.

Ivy had offhandedly mentioned something similar in Haight's Circles thread - the idea of design and Designer sort of going hand in hand (that is, patterns discovered in the natural world create the need to identify a cause). I think they go together kind of naturally.

 

[Wolf]

Although I'm far too lazy to look at this video, I hate bananas.

 

[Varelse]

Although I'm far too lazy to look at this video, I hate bananas.

I hate ripe bananas. The greener ones are ok.

Perfect quote, Meshou.:steam:

 

[Wolf]

I found this incredibly ironic. I mean, pick something like an apple... My parents grow bananas (yes, in CANADA. I don't understand it either...) and I learnt (willingly, really) a lot of them growing up.

The banana is the ID's nightmare - a plain and documented process of evolving from something useless to something disgusting (sorry, I hate the taste), complete with the different versions existing in the wild! And it has one of the longest documented histories of any plant in the world.

Growing pains indeed

The natural banana is neat, the plantain/banana hybrid that we know as a banana is disgusting.

 

[Colors]

My world has been turned upside down. Now must convene with nearest rabbi/priest/spiritual consult and begin serious conversation on starting a petition to change stop lights to black/green/yellow- the way God intended.

Never had a natural banana- what does it taste like?

 

[Zergling]

My world has been turned upside down. Now must convene with nearest rabbi/priest/spiritual consult and begin serious conversation on starting a petition to change stop lights to black/green/yellow- the way God intended.

The red lights in your area weren't working?

 

[darlets]

The natural banana is neat, the plantain/banana hybrid that we know as a banana is disgusting.

I think it has even got to the point where we select the best bananas and clone them. I remember reading that somewhere.

 

[niffer]

I've seen that before. They don't provide very good evidence, actually. I think God exists because bananas taste delicious. Of course, all you banana-haters were made that way, since you are not the true children of God.

 

[cafe]

I think it has even got to the point where we select the best bananas and clone them. I remember reading that somewhere.

A few years ago in my general ed plant class, the prof was saying that we are going to have a banana crisis because most if not all the commercial bananas are clones of the same tree. A disease or pest that can take one out can easily take them all out.

I read an article about it between then and now that said we had run into a crisis with the commercial banana of the past and they had replaced it with the current commercial banana which is said to be of inferior quality as far as flavor, but it ships well and was resistant to the disease that took out the last commercial banana. Or something like that.

Edit: Here's a link about some of the problems.

 

[Totenkindly]

Wait a second... Wasn't this thread originally about why bananas would send atheists fleeing, like garlic for the proverbial vampire?

(I mean, banana eugenics is fascinating and all, but...)

 

[Rhu]

I like the fact that Kirk Cameron's moustached lifemate is named Ray Comfort.

 

[cafe]

Wait a second... Wasn't this thread originally about why bananas would send atheists fleeing, like garlic for the proverbial vampire?

(I mean, banana eugenics is fascinating and all, but...)

How much is there to talk about after we've established that atheists aren't actually afraid of bananas or their theological implications?

 

[Totenkindly]

Fear the banana.

Do not mock the banana.

 

[cafe]

The banana loves me. I'm a theist. :546:

 

[HilbertSpace]

Wait a second... Wasn't this thread originally about why bananas would send atheists fleeing, like garlic for the proverbial vampire?

Pshaw. I eat bananas like that for breakfast*.

I think we got off-topic with the observation that bananas (as with most of the plants and animals we eat on a regular basis) are perhaps among the worst examples to use in the Creationist debate as they are the result of what could be termed artificial (as opposed to natural) selection - they were cultivated to emphasize certain desirable qualities.

The general approach that the video uses - reasoning backward from form to utility - is one that is used among biologists as well, but one has to be very aware of the propensity to build elaborate castles on foundations of sand. This falls into the category of what Gould called "Just So Stories," likening them to Kipling's stories explaining how the leopard got its spots, for example. It's easy enough to see a particular form or behavior and construct a theory as to how it might help the organism survive and reproduce, but in doing so we have to be aware of the fact that we're creating a hypothesis based around a sometimes incomplete idea of the origin and possible historic uses of the given feature. This is one area, for example, in which many evolutionary psychologists seem to take a fair number of liberties, to the detriment of their science.

The Creationist/evolutionary debate is better addressed, I think, by observing things like flower coloration. The evolutionist would like to be able to demonstrate some utility in flowers having brilliant colors. By observing the eyes of the pollinators that the plant is interested in attracting (from the natural selection model, plants that are successful in out-competing rivals for pollination services are going to tend to survive over time), we find out that the do, in fact, see colors (albeit in a slightly different spectrum from than humans).


* That was the first time I can recall ever having used that statement in a way that could be both figuratively and literally true.

 

[hereandnow]

The evolutionist would like to be able to demonstrate some utility in flowers having brilliant colors. By observing the eyes of the pollinators that the plant is interested in attracting (from the natural selection model, plants that are successful in out-competing rivals for pollination services are going to tend to survive over time), we find out that they do, in fact, see colors (albeit in a slightly different spectrum from than humans).

Further a creationist will avoid, except by way of slight reference, an explanation of why something once prominent in the physical world has altered to meet the current demands placed on it. A tail, for example, that is no longer used and comes out a mere stump. (Note there are many examples of this)

 

[Langrenus]

Ah, I opened this thread expecting my fundamental belief (possibly a poor choice of word in this context) to be shaken to the core. Trepidation ruled my heart.

Then I laughed out loud

For an interesting (modern) example of evolution see BBC - Snakes bite back at poison toads - neatly demonstrates the fact that things can happen naturally in small steps over relatively short periods of time. Or that god and the devil (I don't consider them proper nouns, so correct punctuation to my eye) are locked in an eternal battle for the soul of humanity. Maybe.

 

[Totenkindly]

Update: The show is airing tonight. half is also uploaded already on ABCNews.com, and the other half will be available tomorrow, for all you webheads out there.

"Proving the existence of God is actually a lot easier than you think," said former child star Kirk Cameron, minutes before taking the stage for the "Nightline Face-Off."

We'll have much more on the Face-Off tonight on Nightline at 11:35 p.m. You can also watch the rest of the debate Thursday, May 10 at 1 p.m. on ABCNews.com and 2 p.m. on ABC News Now.

It was a warm Saturday night in New York City as a mixed crowd of atheists and Christians converged on Calvary Baptist Church in midtown Manhattan for the first "Nightline Face-Off." And it wasn't long before temperatures began to rise inside the auditorium....

 

[ptgatsby]

Update: The show is airing tonight. half is also uploaded already on ABCNews.com, and the other half will be available tomorrow, for all you webheads out there.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find the comments on the show to be relatively terrifying. Maybe because I hate the preaching part of it though...


PRAISE THE LORD for this debate - in which there is NO debate - because there IS a GOD - the only God, God ALMIGHTY. --- The atheists sounded so unknowledgable and were just talking in circles - thank you, Ray and Kirk for sharing the TRUTH. - I pray that hearts will be open to accept and believe that TRUTH. - Amen



Praise the LORD! Kirk & Ray spread the WORD to those who lack HIM, now it is for them to accept it or not. I believe when the two non-believer said that they were Christian, I believe what they were really saying was, "I was brought up in a Christian household with Christian parents." I don't believe they were saying I chose Christianity, but am no longer one. One you accept the LORD as your LORD and SAVIOR for yourself, HE is forever dwells in your heart.


I wouldn't mind watching it now... *nod*

 

[Totenkindly]

It's like chumming the water for sharks.