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  1. #31
    Morlock Rhu's Avatar
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    I like the fact that Kirk Cameron's moustached lifemate is named Ray Comfort.

  2. #32
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Wait a second... Wasn't this thread originally about why bananas would send atheists fleeing, like garlic for the proverbial vampire?

    (I mean, banana eugenics is fascinating and all, but...)
    How much is there to talk about after we've established that atheists aren't actually afraid of bananas or their theological implications?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #33
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Fear the banana.

    Do not mock the banana.

    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #34
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    The banana loves me. I'm a theist. :546:
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #35
    Senior Member HilbertSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Wait a second... Wasn't this thread originally about why bananas would send atheists fleeing, like garlic for the proverbial vampire?
    Pshaw. I eat bananas like that for breakfast*.

    I think we got off-topic with the observation that bananas (as with most of the plants and animals we eat on a regular basis) are perhaps among the worst examples to use in the Creationist debate as they are the result of what could be termed artificial (as opposed to natural) selection - they were cultivated to emphasize certain desirable qualities.

    The general approach that the video uses - reasoning backward from form to utility - is one that is used among biologists as well, but one has to be very aware of the propensity to build elaborate castles on foundations of sand. This falls into the category of what Gould called "Just So Stories," likening them to Kipling's stories explaining how the leopard got its spots, for example. It's easy enough to see a particular form or behavior and construct a theory as to how it might help the organism survive and reproduce, but in doing so we have to be aware of the fact that we're creating a hypothesis based around a sometimes incomplete idea of the origin and possible historic uses of the given feature. This is one area, for example, in which many evolutionary psychologists seem to take a fair number of liberties, to the detriment of their science.

    The Creationist/evolutionary debate is better addressed, I think, by observing things like flower coloration. The evolutionist would like to be able to demonstrate some utility in flowers having brilliant colors. By observing the eyes of the pollinators that the plant is interested in attracting (from the natural selection model, plants that are successful in out-competing rivals for pollination services are going to tend to survive over time), we find out that the do, in fact, see colors (albeit in a slightly different spectrum from than humans).


    * That was the first time I can recall ever having used that statement in a way that could be both figuratively and literally true.
    JBS Haldane's Four Stages of Scientific Theories:

    1. This is worthless nonsense.
    2. This is an interesting, but perverse, point of view.
    3. This is true, but quite unimportant.
    4. I always said so.

  6. #36
    Senior Member hereandnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HilbertSpace View Post
    The evolutionist would like to be able to demonstrate some utility in flowers having brilliant colors. By observing the eyes of the pollinators that the plant is interested in attracting (from the natural selection model, plants that are successful in out-competing rivals for pollination services are going to tend to survive over time), we find out that they do, in fact, see colors (albeit in a slightly different spectrum from than humans).
    Further a creationist will avoid, except by way of slight reference, an explanation of why something once prominent in the physical world has altered to meet the current demands placed on it. A tail, for example, that is no longer used and comes out a mere stump. (Note there are many examples of this)
    INTP 5W6

  7. #37
    Senior Member Langrenus's Avatar
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    Ah, I opened this thread expecting my fundamental belief (possibly a poor choice of word in this context) to be shaken to the core. Trepidation ruled my heart.

    Then I laughed out loud

    For an interesting (modern) example of evolution see BBC - Snakes bite back at poison toads - neatly demonstrates the fact that things can happen naturally in small steps over relatively short periods of time. Or that god and the devil (I don't consider them proper nouns, so correct punctuation to my eye) are locked in an eternal battle for the soul of humanity. Maybe.
    January has April's showers
    And 2 and 2 always makes a 5

  8. #38
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Update: The show is airing tonight. half is also uploaded already on ABCNews.com, and the other half will be available tomorrow, for all you webheads out there.

    "Proving the existence of God is actually a lot easier than you think," said former child star Kirk Cameron, minutes before taking the stage for the "Nightline Face-Off."

    We'll have much more on the Face-Off tonight on Nightline at 11:35 p.m. You can also watch the rest of the debate Thursday, May 10 at 1 p.m. on ABCNews.com and 2 p.m. on ABC News Now.

    It was a warm Saturday night in New York City as a mixed crowd of atheists and Christians converged on Calvary Baptist Church in midtown Manhattan for the first "Nightline Face-Off." And it wasn't long before temperatures began to rise inside the auditorium....
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #39
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Update: The show is airing tonight. half is also uploaded already on ABCNews.com, and the other half will be available tomorrow, for all you webheads out there.
    I don't know about anyone else, but I find the comments on the show to be relatively terrifying. Maybe because I hate the preaching part of it though...


    PRAISE THE LORD for this debate - in which there is NO debate - because there IS a GOD - the only God, God ALMIGHTY. --- The atheists sounded so unknowledgable and were just talking in circles - thank you, Ray and Kirk for sharing the TRUTH. - I pray that hearts will be open to accept and believe that TRUTH. - Amen



    Praise the LORD! Kirk & Ray spread the WORD to those who lack HIM, now it is for them to accept it or not. I believe when the two non-believer said that they were Christian, I believe what they were really saying was, "I was brought up in a Christian household with Christian parents." I don't believe they were saying I chose Christianity, but am no longer one. One you accept the LORD as your LORD and SAVIOR for yourself, HE is forever dwells in your heart.


    I wouldn't mind watching it now... *nod*

  10. #40
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    It's like chumming the water for sharks.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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