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Struggle with morality in a capitalist world

PeaceRobin

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Hey guys! I don't know what protocol is on this but I started a thread in the NF section about morality in a capitalist world and now I am thinking it would be more appropriate for this section. It's called "ENFP internal struggle with morality". I'd love to get the opinion of some of you who typically don't frequent that section and stick to this one. Thanks!!!
 

lowtech redneck

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I think living morally in a non-capitalist world would be much more difficult-denying freedom to others is one of the most immoral things possible.
 

Craft

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^ There is more freedom where there is less interest. Capitalism may be effective in some countries but all it brought to many is a reality of deceit, corruption, conflict, and a hunger for all things. I'd rather live in the mountain with the monks.

I don't really see "thriving economy" when people are too individualistic to the point of keeping all the goods to themselves and forcing it to stay that way. Revolutions don't work as well. People are too individualistic for that!

Sigh. Apparently, I like innovations...another capitalist brainwashing!
 

lowtech redneck

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^ There is more freedom where there is less interest. Capitalism may be effective in some countries but all it brought to many is a reality of deceit, corruption, conflict, and a hunger for all things. I'd rather live in the mountain with the monks.

Economic systems without free enterprise tend to have much more of the first two, and replaces (regulated) conflict with opression; competition between interests (i.e. conflict) means the average individual is not dependent on a small number of forces with extrordinarily high relative power over himself (i.e. fuedalism, communism, or even traditional Tibet, since you mentioned Monks, etc.).
 

entropie

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Morality is possible in a capitalistic world. But your way to become rich will be stonier and more complicated. And the richness you'll achieve wont be money only.
 

Craft

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Economic systems without free enterprise tend to have much more of the first two, and replaces (regulated) conflict with opression; competition between interests (i.e. conflict) means the average individual is not dependent on a small number of forces with extrordinarily high relative power over himself (i.e. fuedalism, communism, or even traditional Tibet, since you mentioned Monks, etc.).

Regardless of "free enterprise", often, in the "underdeveloped world", competition is regulated by the "elites" to the point of creating a system where there is both oppression AND conflict. The majority, the lower class, remains ignorant and stimulated.
 

slowriot

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From wikipedia:
The four basic laws of supply and demand are
If demand increases and supply remains unchanged then higher equilibrium price and quantity.
If demand decreases and supply remains the same then lower equilibrium price and quantity.
If supply increases and demand remains unchanged then lower equilibrium price and higher quantity.
If supply decreases and demand remains the same then higher price and lower quantity.​

then the question is if one finds that speculation in this is moral or not.
 

lowtech redneck

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Regardless of "free enterprise", often, in the "underdeveloped world", competition is regulated by the "elites" to the point of creating a system where there is both oppression AND conflict. The majority, the lower class, remains ignorant and stimulated.

Even under the worst functioning capitalist economies (and no, functionally anarchic states like Somalia do not count), the regulated conflicts within capitalism creates a larger oligarchy where power is less dependent on monopolization of political power in the hands of the few; in short, there is hope for change and potential reform interests are empowered, which is more than non-capitalist economies can provide.
 

Lark

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Capitalism's evil and any of its benefits are merely accidential and indirect.

Hence Adam Smith's quote about "Not from benefice..." it'll eventually become obsolete and then maybe morality will be a factor and arbitror of human affairs and character again.
 

nolla

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It isn't just capitalism. It probably doesn't matter all that much which system of thought is behind a society, when it is let to rule everything it just becomes too much. It seems like capitalism is taught to us so thoroughly that it is almost impossible to really question it and propose alternatives. No one seems to do that... and the ones that do, they seem out of touch with reality. And, of course they are, since the "reality" is the capitalist reality.
 

Lark

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It isn't just capitalism. It probably doesn't matter all that much which system of thought is behind a society, when it is let to rule everything it just becomes too much. It seems like capitalism is taught to us so thoroughly that it is almost impossible to really question it and propose alternatives. No one seems to do that... and the ones that do, they seem out of touch with reality. And, of course they are, since the "reality" is the capitalist reality.

I think it does matter because the ability to frame debates, determine reality and reproduce it one generation after another is determined by the dominant system of thought.

For a long time now the system of thought has had a close relationship to the economic system and production to be more specific, the means and mode/norms of production matter the most, I dont believe there's a direct causal relationship by any stretch of the imagination but its definitely reciprocal.
 

Lark

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I decided to quote this from the other thread since it sums up why I think morality is especially problematic in societies which are capitalist or actively seek to conform to that ideology:

I agree with this, its my experience of "my generation" too, its not even like its restricted a class of low rent impulsive individuals or family units like it may have been years ago either. I do think its a bad thing and I'd say its one of the most pressing social problems of the age if not the most pressing social problem.

Why? I think there's a lot of reasons why, although principle I'd blame consumerism and its norms, they want people to remain children and prioritise easy choice rather than commitments, freedom not as autonomy or responsibility but as a lack of consequences, often the predictable consequences of your actions based on obvious experience.

Its not that consumerism is unnatural or some djinn or genie, its just that the countervailing norms of religion, ideology, even more vague spirituality or philosophy have been steadily eroded and assailed by a variety of opposing forces, some sophisticated, some (and I suspect this is really widespread) a lot, lot less so. A lot of the protest which works in consumerism's favour is pretty much just serving as a cluster of rationalisations, so you get people who consider social sanctions, especially when those same sanctions turn up as their own conscience, a drag dressing their rejection of it as really the most valiant attempt to challenge illegitimate authority, oppression, hating, whatever.

When I talk about consumerism I'm not just talking about capitalism or moneyed exchanges, although that has a lot to do with it, but much broader strokes, the tendency to objectify others, as objects to hate, exploit, control, coerce, compell, cajole and to reduce them to a means rather than an end and to treat everything, people, animals, shared space or resources, scarce resources, without much thought or consideration or reflection. That goes beyond monied social relations to a lot besides, from the casual cruelty of an internet/online troll to "recreational rioters" or gangs of kids who beat up strangers for fun.

Its something which is older than and greater than capitalism itself, which I consider a mess of contradictions all by itself, but its really and truly exploded as a cultural cancer in every economy in the world which attempts to approximate as closely as possible the capitalist ideological precepts and expectations.

Second only to that cultural dry rot I'd consider the endemic ambivalence about aging and the lack of consensus about age which it breeds, kids want to be older than they are, adults want to be younger, a lot of people want to remain in their teens forever, when if they took a step back they might realise it wasnt all it was cracked up to be.

There is no consensus about age, hence you get people like Peter Thatchell, UK gay/sexual rights, campaigner who is bold enough to campaign against there being an age of conscent or the criminalisation of adolescents or those slightly older who behave in a predatory manner towards their younger peers. This to me is one of the worst developments and will probably leave the world in a worse state than it was in when there existed iron and oppressive precepts about age and aging (not that a return to those norms would be likely to be possible or even preferable, it'd probably reflect contemporaneous concerns or dreams about what they where rather than any objectivity about it).
 
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