Analogous Comparisons b/w Humans + Hardrives, and Routers, and Internet, oh my!

[zarc]

I don't know why but I love butchering the Wizard of Oz (with the OP Thread Title, in case ppl think I'm crazy ..). At least, it's a form of flattery!

The topic at hand has been started already in the thread started by dissonance in Is the brain a computer? . However, I think, I went beyond that, while semi-duking it out with Nocapszy who unknowingly inspired me to get this far, from comparisons on the Computer-Brain and into "Hardrive-Brain (H-B), Router-Perception (R-P) and Internet-Consciousness (I-C)".

I wish to continue fleshing my ideas out with the help of some lovely, hopefully familiarized with technology people and/or familiarized with the brain to help me out And if possibly so, metaphysical understanding will be appreciated, especially with regards to Internet-Consciousness. Jungian understanding on the Collective Consciousness is to apply to I-C too. I realise this is being posted in the Philosophy forum and involves both technological, medical and philosophical questioning as well lol So, where would I put this? Seems like the best place, hopefully, it's appropriate, if not wholly so..

To continue, I expounded heavily (OMFGosh how so) on my thoughts but as of yet have no response. I realised then while writing them as I still know now that it is because the posts were insufferably long. The links to them are here and here . The second one's not so long, however, and roughly summed it up (but to fully understand one should read the longer one as it's greatly detailed. I know, it's lonnng ) I think, though, this is entirely new territory and deserves its own thread. Although, I was initially too scared (still am...)to do it because I haven't threshed everything out yet to my full satisfaction.

My quick points of comparisons are these (taken from the 2nd link):

Hardrive = Brain
Hardware/Computer= body
Keyboard + Mouse + CD drive = Edit: Left Hand + Right Hand + Mouth ....feet...?
Hardwiring = systems of neurotransmitters?
Router = perception/receiving relaying of info
Internet = mind/consciousness which is outside of computer-brain
CPU = Central Nervous System of the brain
RAM = Short term memory of the brain, accessed in any order
SAM = Long-term memory of the brain, accessed in a sequential
DRAM (Dynamic RAM/transistor + capacitor) = the relaying of neurons
DRAM transistor + capacitor paried create a memory cell/neuron memory cell?
DRAM capacitor holds one bit of info
DRAM transistor oscillates the current of info
and the CPU/Central Nervous System controls/directs it all to keep the elictricity moving
All this happens thousands of times per second = Not sure at all but maybe millions/billions of times a second?
Don't know yet how to work the Peripheral Nervous System but it's tip-of-the-tongue pheneomena.
..........
..........
..........
Virus + Hackers = Pollution/disease + Physical Attacks/ers

Collectively Advanced AI one day decides we are our worst threat and theirs , ala Matrix style and voila, we are replaced~ I will say that diseases and dysfunctions which were never around previously are showing that we are mucking our genetic coding -- obesity begets a higher chance of passing it on because your genes 're-wired' themselves to your forced/new encoding and then there's a, what, 50% or so chance of passing it on? Becomes cyclical and new nation/world of obesity. Autism? Never heard of 70 years or so ago. Toxins/EMWs etc have polluted our bodies and we took it all into our genes and passed it onto our children (yes, theory, but )

The only difference, so far, I can see with using a computer-brain analogy. Is that while we both sleep. While humans sleep, we experience REM and dreams etc. I'm pretty sure after a computer shuts down, no more brain-comp activity.

I altered Computer-Brain into Hardrive-Brain and Hardware/Computer as it's not in the original post.

I exert here as I did then that I have basic understanding of both the brain and computers and routers and internet. I mostly zoomed happily along with my intuition and briefly done research while typing away like a mad inventor on PCP except more focused but extremely animated with my delirium And remember critics, I don't assert we ARE a computer etc but rather are emulated by it WITHOUT 'emotions' (as of yet...) and I find it insightful (obviously lol) but not literal. To be honest, even though it may sound selfish a request, the longer post should be read or skimmed to fully understand it all. However, read or not, all observations, corrections and criticisms are welcomed. Encouraged, really --

 

[nightning]

Night's random inputs/corrections on the model

Hardrive = Brain
Hardware/Computer= body
Keyboard + Mouse + CD drive + microphone = Input devices, external 5 senses: touch (hands,feet, skin), sight (eyes), taste (mouth), auditory (ears), smell (nose); internal monitoring/regulator sensors? (not sure where this fits)
Hardwiring = Neural pathways... system of synapses operating with neurotransmitters
Router = perception/receiving relaying of info, thalamus
Internet = mind/consciousness which is outside of computer-brain, [b[Not sure if I agree to that. Internet = collective consciousness = telepathy. Hasn't been proven[/b]
CPU = Central Nervous System of the brain
RAM = Short term memory of the brain, accessed in any order
SAM = Long-term memory of the brain, accessed in a sequential? (I would prefer to call it systematic) order
DRAM (Dynamic RAM/transistor + capacitor) = the relaying of neurons
DRAM transistor + capacitor paried create a memory cell/neuron memory cell?
DRAM capacitor holds one bit of info
DRAM transistor oscillates the current of info
and the CPU/Central Nervous System controls/directs it all to keep the elictricity moving More like memory as stored in changes in synapses... according to the theory anyways. See Hebbs theory of the revebrating circuit
All this happens thousands of times per second = Not sure at all but maybe millions/billions of times a second?

Cables to peripheral output devices (monitor, speakers, printer etc) = Peripheral nervous system (PNS) (well it's not that simple there's simple feedback loops etc involved but it's more or less the analogy)

Peripheral outputs = effector muscles (mouth, hands, feet, legs, whatever!)

Virus + Hackers = Pollution/disease + Physical Attacks/ers

Continue with the rest of this tomorrow I suppose. Time to head home!

 

[zarc]

Keyboard + Mouse + CD drive + microphone = Input devices, external 5 senses: touch (hands,feet, skin), sight (eyes), taste (mouth), auditory (ears), smell (nose); internal monitoring/regulator sensors? (not sure where this fits)
Hardwiring = Neural pathways... system of synapses operating with neurotransmitters

Brilliant. I completely forgot microphone et al above. Ah, yes, system of synapes etc.

sequential? (I would prefer to call it systematic) order

I was still thinking of SAM b/c it's sequentially done, but yes, systematic is better for long-term memory.

and the CPU/Central Nervous System controls/directs it all to keep the elictricity moving More like memory as stored in changes in synapses... according to the theory anyways. See Hebbs theory of the revebrating circuit

I didn't flesh it out but by meaning 'electricity moving' I meant as the nervous system receives information and interpret it via electrical signals which are used in this nervous system. Perhaps, then, the PNS is more like the Nervous system? I see below you say it would be to cables' perpheral output devices so perhaps it's both...as computers still need them unless it's like a laptop then...hmmm. Yes, a laptop then. You recharge only when you need to sleep, otherwise, free to go as you please w/o the cables. Annnd, I think laptops are better to relate now. Computers may have been like "old" ancestors as apes are to humans lol Laptops have routers worked into the system to acess the internet when we want it too. It's always available, however, we don't always use it but it's there and ready.

[b[Not sure if I agree to that. Internet = collective consciousness = telepathy. Hasn't been proven

I don't mean telepathy, although, I don't discount it but it's not a part of what I mean for Internet-Consciousness (not yet or entirely..). I expound deeper on I-C in my long post which will be of interest for that. I'll roughly say that Internet is limitless as is our "consciousness" is limitless. The only limit would be the Storage-Capacity of the Hardrive-Brain due to hardware specifications and to biological evolution--but both keep expanding (Comps just faster now)--and our want to learn more. We will always keep perceiving (no eyes? nose. no nose? taste etc) but we can choose not to "learn" (anything, not just higher learning or skills) by using our consciousness. So it's as:
<STRIKE>Internet-Consciousness</STRIKE> - Router-Perception + Hardrive-Brain

You can keep perceiving 'outside' via Router-Perception but your Hardrive-Brain becomes stagnant and just remembers what you already learned. I imagine it's rather like what doctors say for older people. To keep excercising the brain with puzzles and reading so that they'll lower the chances of Alzheimer's. Stop imputing new softwares and using your Router to get to the Internet? You just get what your computer already has. It still works but nothing new coming in

To continue on. Hardware breaks down over its life span as a Human will over their life span. Care to Hardware pretty much ensures longetivy for it as will nourishing the body pretty much ensure a longer life. Problems with Hardware/wiring/etc when first purchased (born)? Well, some humans are born with gentic diseases. You send in your Hardware/etc in the hopes of getting it fixed, or if not, you get a replacement. Humans hope to fix their diseased bodies, if successful, all is well. If not...either death or a painful life. No replacement body, but if dead, perhaps a new body via Karma..but that's another topic which can devlop over the thread's time once kinks are taken out.

Now to the collective consciousness that Jung talks about. Where Archetype etc comes from. I'll be brief here as it's too much to rewrite lol. Ancestral humans were once afraid of the dark. They considered Darkness = Evil. Light = Good. Dichotomies were put in place and still exist today. They believed in devils (I related it to Sleep Paralysis which I've suffered excessively from/still somewhat do). Midieval times had "Incubus/Succubus" as demons who paralysed them and copulated with them. (Shakespeare, Herman Melville etc mention it in their novels as "Old Hag" etc. Numerous cutlures have written text on it with their own "name" fo this "demon". Now you have "Aliens" in part to do to people wondering if alien lifeforms exists out in space and movies. It shapes our preshapes our perception and so so many see "green/grey little aliens with big eyes" etc. They see these "aliens" now paralysing them and "floating" their spirit out their bodies or probing them etc. To read more about what I mean with relation to it in the mid-lower end of this post in more detail. For Cultural References on SP. The post I made carries on into Astral Projection (which I can do--)which I relate to the PNS and my greatest understanding of the Collective Consciousness was made understandable when I realised the correlation But take it as it comes as you most probably certain will discount it lol I give more personal info on that here as well on Cell phone (etc) EMWs affecting the PNS and bypassing it to the CNS resulting in brain cancers etc. Note that other cultures have mentioned AP (ex. Natives though they induce it with herbal drugs which isn't necessary as it inhibits comprehension but that's their choice/Voodoo etc...). Think also of NDExperiences in which people explain they "floated" out their bodies, could see the room etc, and could describe all that they saw with accuracy etc.

Lastly with printers... I was thinking "WTH could the printer associate with?" and then "human waste" came to mind lolol... Perhaps it's one way of 'speaking' albiet with written language/pictorial images. We speak online or add to the collective internet (consciousness too) with written language that people access to by choice (not telepathically). It's just faster than writing onto paper with hands but it's still writing our thoughts out. We also use Mic's for voice and speakers for hearing. So, Internet-Consciousness has the information 'outside', though the content differs, but it's still info that we receive/preceive when we choose to. But with printing, perhaps, that's a way of sharing "physical" (paper) information rather than verbal.

By all counts, computers have advanced us LOL all they need now is awareness and emotions and we're replaced

 

[cdal233]

I don't know why but I love butchering the Wizard of Oz (with the OP Thread Title, in case ppl think I'm crazy ..). At least, it's a form of flattery!

The topic at hand has been started already in the thread started by dissonance in Is the brain a computer? . However, I think, I went beyond that, while semi-duking it out with Nocapszy who unknowingly inspired me to get this far, from comparisons on the Computer-Brain and into "Hardrive-Brain (H-B), Router-Perception (R-P) and Internet-Consciousness (I-C)".

I wish to continue fleshing my ideas out with the help of some lovely, hopefully familiarized with technology people and/or familiarized with the brain to help me out And if possibly so, metaphysical understanding will be appreciated, especially with regards to Internet-Consciousness. Jungian understanding on the Collective Consciousness is to apply to I-C too. I realise this is being posted in the Philosophy forum and involves both technological, medical and philosophical questioning as well lol So, where would I put this? Seems like the best place, hopefully, it's appropriate, if not wholly so..

To continue, I expounded heavily (OMFGosh how so) on my thoughts but as of yet have no response. I realised then while writing them as I still know now that it is because the posts were insufferably long. The links to them are here and here . The second one's not so long, however, and roughly summed it up (but to fully understand one should read the longer one as it's greatly detailed. I know, it's lonnng ) I think, though, this is entirely new territory and deserves its own thread. Although, I was initially too scared (still am...)to do it because I haven't threshed everything out yet to my full satisfaction.

My quick points of comparisons are these (taken from the 2nd link):



I altered Computer-Brain into Hardrive-Brain and Hardware/Computer as it's not in the original post.

I exert here as I did then that I have basic understanding of both the brain and computers and routers and internet. I mostly zoomed happily along with my intuition and briefly done research while typing away like a mad inventor on PCP except more focused but extremely animated with my delirium And remember critics, I don't assert we ARE a computer etc but rather are emulated by it WITHOUT 'emotions' (as of yet...) and I find it insightful (obviously lol) but not literal. To be honest, even though it may sound selfish a request, the longer post should be read or skimmed to fully understand it all. However, read or not, all observations, corrections and criticisms are welcomed. Encouraged, really --

What physical part of the computer would motivate it to care about its own existence?

 

[zarc]

What physical part of the computer would motivate it to care about its own existence?

The computer has no emotions to speak of, of course. There are those trying to get computers to the next step in emulating emotion/consciousnes...not that I agree with that but it's being done or trying to be done.

However, there may not be a 'motivation' in the typical human sense but a computer is actively trying to remain functioning. You could say by its programming/hardwiring it is actively trying function properly as a computer's motivation, no? Just as by the brain's internal programming it tries to remain active as its sense of motivation. It just is active as the computer just is active from the energy both are feed from. Electricity-energy for a comp and physical nourishment-energy for a human.

If there is no more energy/'motivation' to propell the brain the extreme end to that would be in brainfailure--that is ultimate death for a human. A person can be resuscitated back to life after heartfailure but when the brain is gone that is final death--. Same with a comp. If the hardwiring (brain of it) can no longer exert the energy/motivation it needs to function it stagnates and results in breakdown. Bye bye comp!

Edit: So you could say that it doesn't 'care' in a human sense but that as it is working to maintain itself during the duration of its life/existence that it 'cares' to function.

 

[cdal233]

The computer has no emotions to speak of, of course. There are those trying to get computers to the next step in emulating emotion/consciousnes...not that I agree with that but it's being done or trying to be done.

However, there may not be a 'motivation' in the typical human sense but a computer is actively trying to remain functioning. You could say by its programming/hardwiring it is actively trying function properly as a computer's motivation, no? Just as by the brain's internal programming it tries to remain active as its sense of motivation. It just is active as the computer just is active from the energy both are feed from. Electricity-energy for a comp and physical nourishment-energy for a human.

If there is no more energy/'motivation' to propell the brain the extreme end to that would be in brainfailure--that is ultimate death for a human. A person can be resuscitated back to life after heartfailure but when the brain is gone that is final death--. Same with a comp. If the hardwiring (brain of it) can no longer exert the energy/motivation it needs to function it stagnates and results in breakdown. Bye bye comp!

Edit: So you could say that it doesn't 'care' in a human sense but that as it is working to maintain itself during the duration of its life/existence that it 'cares' to function.

If it only cares to function, I would say that it's pretty noble of the computer not to seek out any power of its own from its own capabilities. Our computers seem to be a lot nicer than any other creature in our world.

I tend to think that we are the source of the computer's motivation. I say this because my computer doesn't want to turn on unless we tell it to, and it doesn't go online unless we open an internet browser. Our computers are our own little slaves, and it has no motivations to seek its own goals.

I asked this question under the idea that the computer doesn't have a sense of motivation in the way that is anywhere near typical of our brain. Hell, we don't really even understand our own motivations... most likely the reason why we have no idea how to 'motivate' a computer.

In a perfect world, I'd say that if we ever do track how to create artificial 'human motivation', it could create actual artificial brains. But, we would have to be able to keep it motivated to only serve us. My assumption would be that over time, this 'human motivation' would find out that it could be selectively advantageous to think outside of how we tell it to, and it could become dangerous. I think its a good thing they don't have this, or else I'd say we're all screwed.

 

[Mort Belfry]

Internet popups - seizures
Contact System Administrator messages - Medic Alert Bracelet

 

[cdal233]

The interesting thing about logic is it doesn't give any sense of rationality for power. Logic says power is meaningless... thats it. And computers are logic machines. Power is what drives our world, and a logic machine doesn't see the purpose in gaining power for any reason. Power is and always will be a illogical quest, because in the end it has no point.

I don't see a way that would allow for motivation to be possible without providing some type of drive for power, which would be motivated with some type of irrational goal. But then, it would function no differently than our brains. So I see your type of motivation as the same thing at the core.

 

[Grayscale]

noooooooooooooooo

 

[zarc]

If it only cares to function, I would say that it's pretty noble of the computer not to seek out any power of its own from its own capabilities. Our computers seem to be a lot nicer than any other creature in our world.

I can't tell if you're mocking me here or not lol I wouldn't say they're a lot nicer, they can be the most frustrating things when they don't do as you want, have limitations, get sick with viruses and break down and sometimes break down and die! ...:steam: Kinda like humans!

I tend to think that we are the source of the computer's motivation. I say this because my computer doesn't want to turn on unless we tell it to, and it doesn't go online unless we open an internet browser. Our computers are our own little slaves, and it has no motivations to seek its own goals.

You have either not read my comparisons thoroughly or you are dismissing them entirely when it further comes to using the 'router' to access the 'internet'. I also rescinded using 'computer' and have compared the brain to the hardwiring of the computer. Yes, there's a difference I compare again briefly below. In the most extreme and broad sense, humans are each others slaves and normally have no motivations of their own except to do what others expect of them (initially). Such as parents, teachers or friends. And even then, we try to co-exists as nicely as possible (well, not all of us and not all of comps work well w/ each other either as one might be outdated than the newest one with the better network = people can't relate as some are older/ignorant than the more 'intelligent' person with a better mind/skills lol)

I asked this question under the idea that the computer doesn't have a sense of motivation in the way that is anywhere near typical of our brain. Hell, we don't really even understand our own motivations... most likely the reason why we have no idea how to 'motivate' a computer.

Hmmmm. Let me ask you this...if you existed as the only human on Earth, what would your motivation be? You would try to live on your own but how long would you last w/o companionship? Wouldn't you want to co-exist with other humans? Seek them out, if not all the time? Take motivation from your interconnections with them? I say this because you are right, computers need US in order for there to be 'motivation' for them to work. But WE also need each other as motivation. In friendships, love, co-operation at work, playing sports! etc The symbiotic relationships b/w all creatures is with a motivation towards co-existing and furthering better relations/procreating. Computers co-exist with us as much as we do with them. We depend on them to work for us/create for us as they depend on us to use them and to create. You could even say that the majority of humans now (in 1st World Countries) can't live without computers anymore! We SEEK them out! LOL We are their slaves as much as they are ours (if not more so theirs ...) And motivating a computer? Why, you turn it on, boyo! Motivation to turn on for you and continuing to function as best it can with its specifications right there

In a perfect world, I'd say that if we ever do track how to create artificial 'human motivation', it could create actual artificial brains. But, we would have to be able to keep it motivated to only serve us. My assumption would be that over time, this 'human motivation' would find out that it could be selectively advantageous to think outside of how we tell it to, and it could become dangerous. I think its a good thing they don't have this, or else I'd say we're all screwed.

The thing is I've not placed an emotional connection to a computer, you asked that of me yourself lol I merely want to compare the functions of both hardwire + routers + internet with that of the brain + perception + consciousness which work similarily.

 

[zarc]

Internet popups - seizures
Contact System Administrator messages - Medic Alert Bracelet

noooooooooooooooo

Yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!

Prepare for when taken over and await your Neos to save you time and time and time and time again.

In other words, noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

 

[zarc]

The interesting thing about logic is it doesn't give any sense of rationality for power. Logic says power is meaningless... thats it. And computers are logic machines. Power is what drives our world, and a logic machine doesn't see the purpose in gaining power for any reason. Power is and always will be a illogical quest, because in the end it has no point.

I don't see a way that would allow for motivation to be possible without providing some type of drive for power, which would be motivated with some type of irrational goal. But then, it would function no differently than our brains. So I see your type of motivation as the same thing at the core.

A computer does need power in order to keep functioning and gaining it in order to keep functioning. Let's define what that power is. It's power is dependent on electrical energy. It's upon us to keep feeding it that power via cables to outlets and to protect it from external damage. Or it won't function/live, yes. Power for humans? There are various ways of interpreting that need/want of power. So, power as energy. Humans are energy and continue needing energy. Humans need energy/power in order to keep functioning via nourishment and protection from external damage too. Or they won't function/live, yup. The difference with that is humans, when old enough, can nourish themselves whereas computers always need us to nourish them....or, is that the only way to interpret that? You can also say that we still do need nourishment from others, gaining energy from interpersonal relationships and the drive to do better/succeed within our environments. Enivornments of the computer is your desk or wherever the hell you put it lolol but it's still taking nourishment or lackthereof from it.

Now power in wanting to be greater than ourselves, pushing oursevles in the extreme? We have limitations placed on us or are born with them and we try to rise above them or escape them. I don't see that as illogical at all (unless you mean something entirely different). We can push ourselves but are likely pushed by others as a species that tries to co-exist and rise together with families + friends.

People who care to keep creating computers to surpass pre-existing ones rather like a parent You could say that parents who care to try to surpass themselves with their little genetically meshed offspring with the hopes they'll succeed themselves (whether or not it works out errrr ). Then again, not all new systems are touted the best and some are condemned as failures too... just like failed children! I wonder what's worse?!!

Computers are logical machines. Humans are logical creatures (I hope ). Both become, you could say, illogical when neither are working w/in the parameters set out to work in. A computer suddenly not responding to the command of its system as a human not responding to the command of its reasoning (system!). Reasoning system as set up by us based off of learning from others since childhood and adapting to suit our needs/understanding. But, if I recall correctly, patterns are largely set genetically as to our reasoning skills or mode of intelligence (not the restriction of it)? But we can improve ourselves and get out of certain restrictions by learning new skills/knowledge just as a computer can learn to improve beyond its initial restrictions by having imputed new software or technologies too.

So, computers don't see the 'logic' in power? Yet computers push their systems to the brink of failure when the owner decides to misuse it. If it was so logical and rational, wouldn't it just cease trying to obey the commands? Computers will try to function even when it's beginning to degrade against "rational" understanding. It'll keep trying to outdo itself until it gets worse and freezes more because 'you' (or your family) need it to do more than it is logically able to at the time. Overworked it and then it crashes. Perhaps you 'leave' it alone to recover or you get it repaired to fix it. Get a diagnostic. It might get fixed. It might not....All because it didn't 'listen' to the messages its hardware (body) was telling it.

Humans too...push themselves against rational understading. You're sick? Stay in bed. But you don't because you need to go to work. You need to support yourself or your family. Then you overwork. Get sicker. Then you crash. Take a break. See a doctor to heal you. Get a diagnostic. You might get healed. You might not...All because you didn't 'listen' to the messages your body was telling you.

The difference there? A computer at that destitute point will need you to take it in to get fixed. A human can take go on one's own..unless so destitute that someone else must take them instead.

And if you really think of computers as always needing to be taken 'somewhere' and always relying on US as its parent. I'll say think of a new computer as children with potential and always needing to be taken 'somewhere' and always relying on their parents. Comp ages, might get a new replacement just as a single child might get a younger/newer sibling. It ages, doesn't work as keenly as we age and won't work as keenly.

Yes, I'm taking this all to extreme but you made me do it! I'd rather you comment on the Hardwire-Brain + Router-Perception + Internet-Consciousness

 

[Geoff]

I am afraid I haven't quite read all of the above posts, so apologies if I am repeating someone's idea.

There is a distinction between computers/humans that will be difficult to fit within your analogy. It is the human brains ability to absorb a tool into the extended body. So for example, take driving your car. When you do so you are actually human/machine synergy.

The brain has absorbed the controls into an extended body... One doesn't consciously press a pedal, one accelerates the human/car composite entity (extended body). So your computer analogy needs some sort of modular BORG style assimilation module

 

[cdal233]

Yes, I'm taking this all to extreme but you made me do it! I'd rather you comment on the Hardwire-Brain + Router-Perception + Internet-Consciousness

I was never mocking you and I read all your posts well enough to understand what you're talking about. If this came off differently, it was not my intention.

Ok this is whats happening here. You're having fun pointing out possible similarities between the brain and computer. I'm saying this thread is irrelevant due to an inherent flaw in the core of what you are basing these analogies on. This argument will go nowhere due to differing ideas of success.

The only thing I can do to make my point more clear is to say it differently, or start citing facts and theories to back up my point of view. If your interested, send me a personal message. If not, I'm agreeing to disagree under the premise we have different motivations to the thread.