Psychologically probing/confronting others

[Jack]

I don't know if this is the right sub/forum for this, but, here we go.


Something I'm very curious about is the nature of turning over the stones of how people's minds work. I do it with myself a lot, and I do it to other people to. It's a delicate process, and it can often be very unpleasant. It usually is unpleasant, because you start getting at people's egos and sense of self.

I don't really know what to make of it anymore.

I can help people in that regard, yes, but I can also be a tremendous asshole. I've wondered if my 'destiny' in life is to just disturb other people's psychological bases such that they see what errors and rationalizations they've created for themselves... even if that leaves me friendless. I've also considered exploiting it for my own gains, but, for whatever reason that doesn't ultimately appeal to me.


I don't really know what my question is here, it's more.... do you relate? Or what do you do? at least at an amateur or hobby level, you must feel some sort of inclination to be psychologically invasive or explanatory in trying to address other people - I mean, you're at a forum called typologycentral, aren't you? So, what do you do with that?

 

[guesswho]

I do that to some people, but I think I do it out of curiosity, to see their reaction, and to see if what I think it right. However most of the time they just deny it, which spoils all the fun.

 

[Qlip]

Yeah, I do this, but my technique is pretty passive. I'm almost attracted to people who have minds that I find interesting. I mostly tend to ask a lot of probing, probably annoying, questions.. probably less annoying than they could be, considering that I'm inventorying their insecurities, blind spots, traumas and knee jerk reactions. If they knew what I was doing, it'd be tough explaining that I'm truly interested and I'm not planning some sort of offense.

 

[rav3n]

People are endlessly fascinating. But when someone opens up to the degree of showing vulnerability, why would anyone want to poke and prod or utilise this knowledge in a negative way? It says more (or less) about the individuals who choose to use vulnerabilities against people, than it does the individual who's willing to open up. And yes, that's a Fi judgment.

 

[Totenkindly]

I guess my basic standards of operation are as follows:

1. The world at large, I am not obligated to fix. That's not my job. And trying to "disturb other people's psychological bases" in a conscious way, as if I'm better than them and am going to fix them in some way, IS a negative thing to me.

2. It's different if someone asks for the input. At that point, I am helping them with a goal they've already selected for themselves.

3. If I am in a relationship with someone (close friends or family), then I have more leeway to speak my mind because I am part of a relationship; and it is the health of the relationship that I can be focused on, not necessarily "changing them." It's just that their problems to some degree become our problems, and my problems become our problems as well. Not only can I be more direct in engaging them, but I need to accept that they might be more direct with me; I have to be fair and accept criticism/challenge to the degree that I direct such at them.

4. Where I can "shake people" is simply being myself in a communal sense. I shouldn't be someone else. There are measures of politeness/respect for boundaries that do not sacrifice integrity of self, and measures where you stifle who you are too much and thus cannot be a foil or help to anyone else. I'm not going to apologize for who and what I am just to allow someone else to avoid self-scrutiny; I just don't think I need to be looking for opportunities to dog someone all the time in order to "fix them." Change that is not self-directed is not change and won't last.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I can help people in that regard, yes, but I can also be a tremendous asshole. I've wondered if my 'destiny' in life is to just disturb other people's psychological bases such that they see what errors and rationalizations they've created for themselves... even if that leaves me friendless. I've also considered exploiting it for my own gains, but, for whatever reason that doesn't ultimately appeal to me.

A big question here is how do you respond when someone else does this to you? Did someone help you by doing this, or does it make you angry and like they have no right to intrude that way? Knowing that answer will speak volumes about what is going on for you socially.

 

[rav3n]

To expand on my last post, how do you know your perception is accurate? In natural conversation, most people don't provide every little detail of every scenario, from every angle. So what you're getting is only partial information and if you ask questions, there's no way you can know what might be the right questions to ask that encompasses all possibilities, including the underlying foundations that cause individuals to act, react or perceive things in certain ways.

If I were you, I'd be very careful about imposing your beliefs of right and wrongness, ethics or truthfulness (it's all subjective) on anyone else by messing around in their psyche. There isn't only one way to live, act or believe.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I guess in answering the actual OP, I more often do something close to opposite. I remain quiet or unresponsive and see what the other person's reaction is. I work with a few mentally unstable people who can fly off the handle to a degree that intimidates most people they interact with. They start those tactics with me, but I remain with minimal response, and it draws them down. They often start confessing how their thinking is wrong almost as if they recite what they would expect me to say if I were to lecture them about it. It's pretty interesting actually. People react in various ways with no response, but by not intruding into their space, whatever they offer can only come from them. I find out some true things that way.

I don't think a person can be forced to see something in their own self. There are powerful issues of timing. Intruding into someone psyche might help in some cases, but it is rolling the dice because it could also cause damage. I see people's lives and psyches as almost unimaginably complex, dark, labyrinths.

 

[Totenkindly]

They start those tactics with me, but I remain with minimal response, and it draws them down. They often start confessing how their thinking is wrong almost as if they recite what they would expect me to say if I were to lecture them about it. It's pretty interesting actually. People react in various ways with no response, but by not intruding into their space, whatever they offer can only come from them. I find out some true things that way.

Ironically, that's what typical good therapy involves. The therapist creates a space where the person can work through the issue and bring ideas to the forefront that usually get derailed by the aggressive interactions. You have to be patient and let someone sit in their own echo chamber.

Which means trying to set someone straight can be derailing a more constructive healing process and reinforcing walls of denial, rather than helping someone.

 

[guesswho]

People are endlessly fascinating. But when someone opens up to the degree of showing vulnerability, why would anyone want to poke and prod or utilise this knowledge in a negative way? It says more (or less) about the individuals who choose to use vulnerabilities against people, than it does the individual who's willing to open up. And yes, that's a Fi judgment.

I was not talking about people who open up, putting themselves in a vulnerable position. I was talking about people who annoy me.

 

[rav3n]

I was talking about people who annoy me.

The question you have to ask yourself is why do you need to do this? Have they honestly infringed on your personal boundaries and life or were they expressing differing opinions and it annoyed you?

 

[Beargryllz]

I think the vast majority of people want to be probed by others, so I have no second thoughts about doing the analyzing and sharing what I find. Their are a small number of unpleasant reactions, but these are just a small price to pay for the insight derived from the whole of the probing process.

 

[ThatGirl]

I agree with Metaphor on this one.

I was probably more like that when I was in my early teens and finding my footing. Seriously though, I have zero desire to get into or fuck with peoples minds. As a matter of fact, I think for my own, and the worlds sake, its better left alone. Even if you fake it, at least pretend to have normal cognition, and I will pretend not to notice the few times you let your guard down .

 

[Jack]

A big question here is how do you respond when someone else does this to you? Did someone help you by doing this, or does it make you angry and like they have no right to intrude that way? Knowing that answer will speak volumes about what is going on for you socially.

I would imagine there is an obviousness to what I'm going to say but I'll write it all out anyway.

There are people who have been malevolent about trying to psychologically influence me or other people, who I've reacted strongly against. They are either abusive in a sort of 'sick' way for their own entertainment or more often stemming from some sort of other abuse or suffering they've developed, or some sort of unmet need, etc etc.

There are instances where someone has pointed out to me something that really bothered me or that I didn't want to see, or that I thought was foolish. But for various reasons, I came to see that they had a point - some of it was me opening up my eyes to how I was hurting someone else, or how I was being ignorant or insensitive or just plain stupid. And they other people have had to use varying degrees of 'force' to do that. You could say, I suppose, I've gotten advice about relationships or "Feeling" related things in that way.

-- and similarly, to that end, I often find myself wanting to (benevolently) tell people how their actions could be made more effective, towards whatever goals they want.

And sometimes there are instances where it's almost out of curiosity or simply examining of why I or someone else is doing something - the influences, the factors, the reasonings, the ins and outs. It's a sort of educational experience that isn't necessarily directed with a judgement, just trying to bring subconscious or other motivational factors into the light of understanding.

There are probably others 'categories' or types of interactions, too. I've had many such.


...I guess part of me is wondering what attitude I should take towards being that way with others. Obviously the 'overbearing jerk telling you what to do' doesn't make anyone happy. And I've been that way in the past, but I realize it's not fruitful, even though I have that inclination at times. I wonder if it could just be "something that Jack does" - meaning, the third group of things, explaining and thinking about things in an educational sense, and not being judgmental.

It's really hard for me not to 'impose' or 'project' my view when I see people doing things inefficiently, but at the same time, I've developed (and I suppose this is actually a reason I made this thread), a sort of gag order on myself, at times. I feel like I don't understand the boundaries very well -- I don't want to be a jerk, or make people not like me, or cause detriment to other people; but I have my opinions about how things should be done. If I don't say anything and hold everything back, I feel muted and depressed, but if I say too much I'm overbearing. And lately I've been saying less and less. So perhaps I'm trying to find a way to be positively engaging towards others.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I realize the individual who made the thread is banned, but this topic represents a fad in online communication. It is good to make distinctions between a few assumptions about what the thread title could mean.

There are people who have been malevolent about trying to psychologically influence me or other people, who I've reacted strongly against. They are either abusive in a sort of 'sick' way for their own entertainment or more often stemming from some sort of other abuse or suffering they've developed, or some sort of unmet need, etc etc.

I have seen a fair amount of this from people in various settings, and my impression is that it is likely they have faced some difficult or abusive experiences in life, but they are not comprehending the full scope of the difficulties of life. They have had it hard enough to learn the behavior, but not hard enough to understand the full consequences of their behavior. This does display a form of entitlement which is almost always associated with a sense of self-pity, or being in some way more special than the people you attack. It is also an accepted form of criticism and dominance in the media. Emotional abuse (communication intended to perform emotional harm and beyond what is necessary to communicate information) is accepted by our society as a way to communicate and establish dominance.

People who are willing to dig around in other's psyches require enough naive arrogance to think they are qualified to do it. Most people would not assume they are qualified to perform exploratory surgery on the body, and yet in some cases the resulting harm can be equally severe for psychological probing if the person has had enough underlying mental fractures and trauma. A person who makes a habit of stabbing at others' psyches for sport has likely influenced harm they can't even imagine (especially if it has been done at the safe distance of the internet). This isn't meant to instill guilt because that is irrelevant unless it is a motivator to quit. The person might not intend harm and think everything is a game, or that no one can possibly be affected via the internet. Assuming those things doesn't make them true. It isn't only an issue of sensitivity (although that can be a factor). It can also be an issue of psychological triggers from former trauma that the game-player cannot and will not ever comprehend. People who go around jabbing at people's psyches need to stop this behavior.

For a lot of people I think their lives are easy enough and they are bored enough that they think it is okay. They are more like the dog in the fence who barks frenetically at any passers-by. A person with a full comprehension of the struggle of life will have developed more instincts to conserve energy, and this includes emotional energy. They are more likely to think like a wild animal who will not fight unless their life depends on it. Even a smaller wound can fester and result in death in the harshness of the wild, and so these things are not risked for sport.

There are instances where someone has pointed out to me something that really bothered me or that I didn't want to see, or that I thought was foolish. But for various reasons, I came to see that they had a point - some of it was me opening up my eyes to how I was hurting someone else, or how I was being ignorant or insensitive or just plain stupid. And they other people have had to use varying degrees of 'force' to do that. You could say, I suppose, I've gotten advice about relationships or "Feeling" related things in that way.

When this is communicated from a trusted individual and you know there is an underlying respect that you can do better, or that your behavior should align with your motivations, then constructive criticism is an act of kindness. Many different styles of communication, from the gentle to the harsh and blunt can fall into this category, but the foundation must be one of trust and respect. Style is not terribly relevant as long as that foundation is in place.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Ironically, that's what typical good therapy involves. The therapist creates a space where the person can work through the issue and bring ideas to the forefront that usually get derailed by the aggressive interactions. You have to be patient and let someone sit in their own echo chamber.

Which means trying to set someone straight can be derailing a more constructive healing process and reinforcing walls of denial, rather than helping someone.

Somebody knows what they are talking about...

 

[Lark]

I think Falcon or whoever they were was more prolific posting as Jack than they were in their other real persona, which is strange but disappointing a bit too.

 

[Serenes]

Something I'm very curious about is the nature of turning over the stones of how people's minds work. I do it with myself a lot, and I do it to other people to. It's a delicate process, and it can often be very unpleasant. It usually is unpleasant, because you start getting at people's egos and sense of self.

I can help people in that regard, yes, but I can also be a tremendous asshole. I've wondered if my 'destiny' in life is to just disturb other people's psychological bases such that they see what errors and rationalizations they've created for themselves... even if that leaves me friendless. I've also considered exploiting it for my own gains, but, for whatever reason that doesn't ultimately appeal to me.

I don't really know what my question is here, it's more.... do you relate? Or what do you do? at least at an amateur or hobby level, you must feel some sort of inclination to be psychologically invasive or explanatory in trying to address other people - I mean, you're at a forum called typologycentral, aren't you? So, what do you do with that?

I also seem to really enjoy probing people psychologically.. constantly asking questions about themselves, learning their different perspectives, and sometimes daring to ask personal things which can lead to incredibly deep, intense, and insightful discussions with people. However, I don't do it with everyone, and it's only with people who I feel can handle the topics discussed.. my tactic is more passive & non-threatening, in that I may take a risk at asking something personal but if I sensed uncomfortableness from the other then I'd stop and not probe any further. I always give them space, and not make them feel cornered or forced to give me an answer.

People have told me that I come across as very accepting and kind.. so I think that helps others open up to me easier, because they know I have no ill intentions despite my curious probing. I've never really viewed it as something I could use against people though, more so a way for me to understand and connect with others better and help them if needed. Trying to find out more about someone on a deeper level is just my way of showing genuine interest in learning more about them, to relate, and to learn together. My goal is not to 'correct' their thinking or make them realize their errors and such, but in helping someone feel accepted, listened to, and understood.. if our discussions somehow helped them gain insight to change than that's even better, but it's up to them.

I guess I'm just a curious person overall and I like to learn how others may think differently or similarly to me.. but also from connecting with people so far, most have seemed to enjoyed it.. it's just that most people don't often seem genuine and interested enough to actually ask these things to understand them better? Soo mostly I do it to get closer to people, and because I think they like being asked and understood better.. but if I sensed that I was going too far against their comfort, then I'd back off because my intent is not to hurt them in the first place with my probing.

Haha but compared to the OP of disturbing people to realize their errors and such, I haavee wondered sometimes if my 'destiny' is life was to help spread acceptance and happiness to people.. lol. weird.

 

[nolla]

Probing isn't a problem for me, but there's something similar. I have been told a couple of times I'm provocative. It's not like I try to be so, I just have some sort of habit to ask questions that show the opposites of almost any question. Or maybe not opposites, but at least different perspectives that make the original question seem like it's not even worth asking. This is in a way the same as psychological probing, but I don't consider it as bad. I guess I see the ideas being separate of the individual. This obviously isn't true, but still, I feel no pain when showing alternative perspectives and possibly shaking someones "truth". Maybe I should? I don't know.

But I never (intentionally) probe into people's minds. Or if I do, I make it very obvious. I will ask straight questions. Being sneaky about it or playing games isn't my thing.

 

[Zarathustra]

I think Falcon or whoever they were was more prolific posting as Jack than they were in their other real persona, which is strange but disappointing a bit too.

I agree.