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  1. #1
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
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    Jul 2010

    Default The concept of freedom and the struggle towards it.

    Freedom is a very controversial thing.
    It is used in all kinds of arguments, in all kinds of sentences, with all kinds of meanings.
    People go to war for freedom. Actually both sides/countries/alliances in the war say they fight for 'some kind of' freedom.
    Politicians talk about freedom.
    Priests talk about freedom.
    Everybody talks about it.
    Either if it's a form or government, money, some kind of emancipation, etc.

    This word is full of meaning. Full of inspiration. It is so full of meaning that you can bullshit people by using it.

    The most common myth about freedom is that money=freedom. It's a very common belief.
    That's why people sacrifice their actual freedom, for the illusion of freedom.
    Somebody said to me once that, people in the US are free, because they have money.
    How is that freedom, if money is just consumption fuel, you need to refuel, you will always need to refuel. So what they have more stuff...that's freedom?!

    But what is freedom without money? Can you be free if you're broke?
    What'cha gonna do?! Play chess in the park all summer?
    Not having money means that you ain't going anywhere, you're stuck where you are, in your city, in it's gray buildings with no colors in your horizon.

    So money actually has something to do with being relatively free, but money does not equal freedom.

    I live in a former communist country, so...the folks in the west might say...hey you're free now!!!!!!

    Free to do what? Free to go where? Free of what?

    Freedom is one of those things with many versions. Every person generate a mental version of it. With so many variations.

    I rarely feel free. It seems like 'absolute' freedom is impossibly to accomplish, as I am in a system, in which you either obey, or are an outcast. I must fuel this rusty corrupted system, because everyone is doing it!!!!

    For me freedom is bullshit. I never felt free, and I don't think I will ever feel otherwise in the near future.

    Freedom is a cliche image of someone running in a field, in a sunny day, with his hands up in the air, excited, enthusiastic, of the beauty of things.

    We're all drops of water, racing towards the ocean, fixed in our course, in gravity's captivity. Drops which think the ocean will set them free, but not even the ocean can escape gravity can't it?

    But hey...let's think positive!!!!
    How would I improve the world (I know) so that it's people are actually more free.

    1. Equal possibilities.
    Now that's a good step towards freedom. But from what I see, the idea of equal possibilities rarely applies where I am living.
    Each and every person in the whole fu**ing world must have possibilities.
    Or at least theoretically.

    2. Fuck consumerism.
    Honestly. Every person I know has a loan in the bank, which takes more that 50% of their monthly income.
    Why? So they can buy shit. As if the new shiny things make them happy. It's not like you f**k the shit you buy. No, you just use it. And can live without it.
    Working + Buying stuff does not lead to much evolution. It leads to more work and more consumption. Till the whole thing will collapse.
    Evolution is more like a hobby of society.
    New values are required to replace the obsolete ones.

    3. Education.
    School is crap. At least where I come from. You learn things, you relearn things, and the better you are at learning, the more As (10s) you get.
    I'm not good at learning things that don't interest me. And I usually remember the essential, not the whole f***ing thing, what good comes from knowing the entire thing.

    School must encourage independent thinking, people reaching their own conclusions, making a little effort in discovering for themselves the meaning of poems, not reading repeatedly an essay made by some guy, and remembering it.
    People must discover their inner values, who are they to tell me what to think.
    Mental independence. But that doesn't come very handy in wars does it?
    You need mobs, dressed similarly, from the time they're born, till the moment they die.
    Wearing school uniforms, wearing business uniforms, stripping people of their inner self.

    4. Science. Yes science.
    We need science. We need to know more. Why should we stop here.
    It happens so fast, things change so fast, from a computer the size of a room, to mini laptops, to whatever.
    We need to discover more!

    5. Art.
    I love art. Any kind of art.
    But most people with an inclination to art, where I come from become accountants or stuff like that.
    Because very little (no) money comes out of art!!!
    We're back to the money. You don't wanna end up half starved on the streets, writing poems to people you meet for about 1$. So you become an accountant.
    For financial security. And total, irreversible boredom.

    I say fuck that!!! We need art! We need creative people! We need beauty, in a world with so many rules and regulations.
    They need some kind of reward for what they're doing. From society.

    6. Changing the system. Whatever that means. I'm not saying that we need some perfect magic world. I just want a world with less corruption, a different world, in which people are not OWNED by other people.

    But enough about what I think.
    What would you change in the world, for the sake of freedom?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    6w7 sp/so


    What would you change in the world, for the sake of freedom?
    Well for one, less government and less social constraints on behavior would be an ideal way to allow more freedom. To embrace ones passions without the shackles of reason or law confining ones movement. Also, a return to a more natural state, one closer to nature without all the trappings of modern day society or distractions of capitalism. In other words, Romanticism.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2010


    Freedom, in a society, is the existence of rules in order to have a certain idea of what to expect where you go. Without these rules, you would never have any genuine freedom, as any path you have chosen could be unfairly obstructed by somebody with simply more power than you.

  4. #4
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    7w6 sx/sp
    ILE Ti


    Freedom is overrated as a concept. Obviously to an extent being free from restraints, to move aroyund, do what you want etc. is essential to a person's quality of life, but the ideal of freedom for the sake of freedom is stupid and often counterproductive. What's really important is quality of life.

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  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009


    Equal possibilities sounds a lot like equal opportunity, its probably three parts personal and cultural which cant be influenced easily by the state or even society; consumerism, same deal really, I'm not a fan but I'm not a fan of some of the cliched attacks on consumerism either because its usually people who're privileged that're able to condeem it in the first place; schooling, well, its not the only sort of education but a lot of the bohemian criticisms of it I hear are personal grievances, ie schools should value me more than the smart kids; Science, how you define it, better laptops, more apps, sounds a lot like consumerism to be honest; Art? Well, one mans meat is another man's poison and it wasnt ever truer than in the field of art, the money that Tracey Emin and others like her made for unmade beds was scandalous.

    All that said, I kind of see what you're aiming at, you ever read Eric Fromm? He was a little more radical than most, sort of impractical and unworldly to be honest, but he was good at the whole vision thing. I'd recommend Man For Himself, To Have or To Be and The Sane Society if you're unfamiliar.

    What do I think is necessary? Mainly personal and cultural changes, which involves a lot of analysis, mainly self-analysis but also social analysis and a true discovery of the extent to which you're just a product of your surroundings or habituated to the rythmns of the economy, demands of work, fashions, vogues or group identity and the extent to which you're ready, willing or even able to change if you are and that's not apace with your ideas, values or ideologies/philosophies.

    Institutional change, structural change, that all plays catch up with personal and cultural changes, that's simplistic but most revolutions or major changes in government, economy, law are general ratifications of universally or nearly universally accepted positions.

    To be honest when it comes to freedom as a concept I think its seriously abused at the moment, modern day libertarianism is dedicated to dismantling the welfare states created before, during or after the second world war, with or without any cultural change, preferably with but the propaganda against democratic government and in favour of what they describe as representative republics makes it clear that's not really necessary for most of them. The kinds of powerlessness and dependency involved would be phenomenal and could only be described as freedom in an abstract theoretical sense for the majority. For the rich it would be great though. Until they realise that the increased revenues arent real profits but just money that was circulated a different way in the past and without it circulating there'd be less and less of that even.
    All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.
    Chapter IV, p. 448. - Adam Smith, Book 3, The Wealth of Nations

    whether or not you credit psychoanalysis itself, the fact remains that we all must, to the greatest extent possible, understand one another's minds as our own; the very survival of humanity has always depended on it. - Open Culture

  6. #6
    Senior Member guesswho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010


    Well I guess I was talking about the 'consumerism' phenomenon that's in my country. Because it actually works in the west, I don't really have much against it in other places where things are fine.
    But in Eastern Europe, we have all sorts of imitations of western culture, very few things original that actually belong to us.
    I wrote about laptops, because mom has these cards, from old computers, the cards were linked to the keyboard, when you typed the cards would get perforated, and then you would take the card from the keyboard and put it in ..another thing that read from it. And the computer was one big room.
    Who knows how future tech will look like. I was trying to give an example I guess for how fast things are progressing.
    I haven't read Eric Fromm, but I think will, not that I'll be on vacation.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010


    Freedom is what is left after manufacturing boundaries and restrictions for other conscious beings. Whether this is a consequence of our inability to continue creating boundaries, or as a reaction from encroachment in the form of these restrictions is unknown to me.

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