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What does it mean to be truly evil?

Tamske

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The "truly good" thread and a couple of other things made me think about evil.

I think humans are basically good. They try to do the things they think/feel are good. Of course, you'll get conflicts of interests.

If two guys are in love with the same girl, there could be a fight among them, even if the guys aren't really violent to begin with.

A suicide bomber sees himself as a hero, sacrificing himself for his country, family, hoping his sacrifice will give others a better world. I'm sure a competent fiction writer could just tweak some details (eg change America into Undead Country) and make a story where the suicide bomber will be seen as a hero by the readers. Samson from the Bible killed more Philistines with his death than during his life, and this was, according to the Bible, a good thing. Hero or terrorist?

But now I'm reading a book about Mao Tse-Tung (Mao, the unknown story; by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday). It's written by an enemy of Mao. I do not know whether the book portrays the historical Mao or not. It contains of course a very negative view on his character. Now, regardless whether it's historically correct or not, the character Mao as portrayed in the book intrigues me. It seems a realistic character. Such a person can exist in the real world.
The character is totally uninterested in other persons. He seems to lack any morals. He's only interested in getting himself power and luxury. He sees himself as a great hero - someone whose task is to shine and reap the benefits during his life. He doesn't believe in communism, it's a tool to get him to the top.
And this sort of person, who seems realistic enough for me, wrecks my theory of "everyone wants to be a good person". I don't understand this. Are there really humans who disregard their fellow humans that much? How is this possible?

I think it's too simplistic to assume some people are "just evil" and regard them as a sort of human demons who have nothing to do with us. I think that's the first step to become a suicide bomber - think some sort of humans are "just evil". I want to know whether there is an evil Tamske inside me, if maybe with another upbringing I wouldn't care about good or evil at all and just try to get power. I want to get into the mind of such people and understand them, because to understand evil is the way to avoid it.
 

Qlip

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I'm one of those that don't believe true evil exists, just various shades of selfishness and ignorance. I suppose the closest to evil you can get is find the cleverest, most selfish ignorant person and give them a lot of money. But if you think about it, even the most selfish person is trying to fill real honest needs: the need to be loved, have material needs met, though in a diseased way.
 

Totenkindly

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A suicide bomber sees himself as a hero, sacrificing himself for his country, family, hoping his sacrifice will give others a better world. I'm sure a competent fiction writer could just tweak some details (eg change America into Undead Country) and make a story where the suicide bomber will be seen as a hero by the readers. Samson from the Bible killed more Philistines with his death than during his life, and this was, according to the Bible, a good thing. Hero or terrorist?
From "Wicked" (which addresses the same issue -- that good and evil are more ambiguous and labels that are typicaly applied to those who chase alternate 'goods' rather than true 'evils'):

WIZARD
(spoken) Elphaba, where I'm from, we believe all sorts of things that aren't true. We call it - "history."

(sung) A man's called a traitor - or liberator
A rich man's a thief - or philanthropist
Is one a crusader - or ruthless invader?
It's all in which label
Is able to persist
There are precious few at ease
With moral ambiguities
So we act as though they don't exist

Amusing... but far too true...

The character is totally uninterested in other persons. He seems to lack any morals. He's only interested in getting himself power and luxury. He sees himself as a great hero - someone whose task is to shine and reap the benefits during his life. He doesn't believe in communism, it's a tool to get him to the top.

And this sort of person, who seems realistic enough for me, wrecks my theory of "everyone wants to be a good person". I don't understand this. Are there really humans who disregard their fellow humans that much? How is this possible?

I don't really know if this is the historical Mao or not, but I don't see it as impossible. If his definition of good IS getting himself into power and luxury, and reaping the benefits, then he's just being good. People basically do what they think is right; as an alternative, they sometimes do what they think is wrong, but the guilt then influences their future behavior because of their own perceived inconsistency between their moral code and their behavior.

And I've actually met a handful of people who were purposefully harmful to others, or wanted to be... albeit it seemed to be a response born of prior hurt in life -- "They screwed me, I am going to screw them and show them who is boss." But again, in a weird sick way (to me), to them they were doing good... they were balancing old wrongs, restoring dignity to themselves by tearing it away from those they felt did not deserve it. Maybe that belief in itself, I could deem as evil; but they felt they were doing good.

I think it's too simplistic to assume some people are "just evil" and regard them as a sort of human demons who have nothing to do with us.

I think people either do what they think is right, or they do what they think is wrong and then war with themselves inside over it. If they do something YOU see as "evil" but THEY don't think it's wrong, then for them it IS "good."

I want to know whether there is an evil Tamske inside me, if maybe with another upbringing I wouldn't care about good or evil at all and just try to get power.

I would doubt it, because you see things differently than that. There is nothing "lurking with you" that sees things otherwise; what you are defining as evil is really just a part of yourself that would try to justify some other value (expediency, self-gratification, whatever) to be LARGER than your current conception of good. So you are still perceiving the same good, it's just that you would find some reason to do things differently in order to pursue a "greater good."
 
O

Oberon

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I remember reading M. Scott Peck's People of the Lie. It was trendy pop psychology, but I think Peck was on to something. The examples he cited were of individuals so incredibly self-centered that the term "selfish" didn't even apply... it wasn't so much that a person was out for everything he could get, but that he or she was so much the center and sum of his own universe that no other way of thinking could ever enter his mind.
 

Zukram.

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(In class right now, so i'll edit this post when I have time to read the whole OP.)

Generally, I don't think there are evil people, but rather evil actions.
 

Moiety

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^the same could be said about good people. The label compromise I use is the average of all your actions and thoughts.

Evil is a state. It is characterized by lack of empathy allied with self-serving ego.
 

Lark

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I remember reading M. Scott Peck's People of the Lie. It was trendy pop psychology, but I think Peck was on to something. The examples he cited were of individuals so incredibly self-centered that the term "selfish" didn't even apply... it wasn't so much that a person was out for everything he could get, but that he or she was so much the center and sum of his own universe that no other way of thinking could ever enter his mind.

I know Peck's got a real spiritual slant of a sort I couldnt warm to, its worse that psychosynthesis or the weirder post-Jungians, although that book in particular I think wasnt bad.

Eric Fromm's book The Heart of Man is good, its hard to get and has a couple of theories which he gives strange titles or content to but which resemble more recent findings in attachment theory or emotional literacy, the idea hinges on prophetic books including the admonision to "harden not your hearts". He suggests that there's about three ways in which people do that, all of which involve a chronic narcissism or sado-masochism.

Second to that some of the Emotional Intelligence and Social Intelligence books are pretty good, they take about a toxic triad and I think it sums up evil pretty well, it includes machavellians, narcissists and psychopaths, the lack of conscience being the common criteria.
 
T

ThatGirl

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If good is essentially defined by conscious awareness and respect, wouldn't evil be the opposite?

To act without regard.
 

Thalassa

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Evil (destruction) can be conscious.

Although 99% of "evil" isn't really...it's just fucked up people doing fucked up things and they're really not intending to do what they do...as you say, acting without regard.
 
T

ThatGirl

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If you act with regard, on some level what you are doing can be justified, in some aspect.
 

Thalassa

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If you act with regard, on some level what you are doing can be justified, in some aspect.


Absolutely not.

Hitler wanted the best for Germany. He acted with what he thought was regard for "his people." What he did was not morally justified.
 
T

ThatGirl

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No, Hitler acted with regard for his people, by acting without regard for the Jews.

Therefore that portion was evil.

Not against my point.
 

Thalassa

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No, Hitler acted with regard for his people, by acting without regard for the Jews.

Therefore that portion was evil.

Not against my point.

So by your definition a person must have regard for all people involved in a situation, otherwise they are evil. What about self-defense? If you kill in self-defense you must disregard the life of the attacker in order to protect yourself or your loved ones. I personally do not consider that "evil."

First degree premeditated murder, on the other hand, is another matter entirely. And Hitler did more than simply "disregard" the Jews...disregard implies neglect...like people who don't care about the environment, or who say cruel things to other people without thinking.

My point is that true evil is pre-meditated, it is active and conscious, not simply a lack of regard.

On the other hand, how can we always argue that lack of regard is evil, when self-defense disregards the other person?

This is "necessary evil" perhaps? Like the bombing of Hiroshima...the Japanese would fight until the death, so we had little other choice but to stop them?

There are so many gray areas that I find it hard to define evil other than a pre-meditated, unprovoked act of extreme cruelty. And like I said, that's rare. I do believe that most "evil" behavior is due to simple disregard for others, or is even the result of childhood trauma and abuse, or simple ignorance.

Even with that being said, mentally ill people do "evil" things ...a few become serial killers, for example. Many people believe Hitler was mentally ill. Does that make his actions any less evil?

I don't know.
 

Tamske

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From "Wicked" (which addresses the same issue -- that good and evil are more ambiguous and labels that are typicaly applied to those who chase alternate 'goods' rather than true 'evils'):

Amusing... but far too true...
Indeed... In my last novel, I've played with that too. The heroine is basically a good person, feeling guilty about a failed life and trying to amend things. She becomes a soldier (and, being an ESTJ, a loyal one), then a terrorist... and then, suddenly, realizes her enemies aren't really enemies, just ordinary people trying to make a living.
She's brought up as a racist... Maybe there's something with this regard thing. She acts with regard to the people with the same skin colour but with true disregard for the people with different skin colour.

Now we could try and shift the number of people the character has regard for.
Take eg a member of a small sect thinking only members are worthy people. If we take it to the extreme case, we'll get someone who disregards all other humans. Being good is then defined as being good for oneself...
 

Eric B

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This topic reminds me of this:
[YOUTUBE="dgyL_bgvEE4"]Who All Here is Evil?[/YOUTUBE]
 

Eric B

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Seriously, I would look at it from the perspective of the immediate purpose of life (for all life forms) as survival and reproduction.

The survival instinct is the need for food, shelter, socialization, recreation, and the education and occupation needed to maintain them. Reproduction is of course sex and the related attraction and emotional bonding.

Both have become corrupted into sin (according to the Biblical definition of evil), by being taken well beyond their intended purposes and making them selfish ends in themselves. This generates much of the "difficulty" in "life".

The survival need becomes greed, theft/conquest/domination/oppression, the lies and misuse of religion and politics to cover it up, and sloth and/or decadence once you have everything you strive for. (And then boredom and a continuous repeat of the cycle as you try to find greater achievements). The reproductive need becomes all the sexual perversion and crime, as well as heartache.

So evil is potentially (at least) in all of us, so even though everyone doesn't fully act it out, that is something we have to take into account when judging someone who is acting it out more.
 
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