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A question mainly for Christians... (others are welcome)

/DG/

silentigata ano (profile)
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If your loved ones, no matter who they may be, were destined for Hell for some reason... would you rather go with them and spend endless days in pain and torture, or would you spend an eternity without them?

I'd rather suffer forever with them. My family means the world to me.
 

Totenkindly

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Yeah -- if hell is supposedly like getting boiled in lava for eternity (at least as far as the cliche goes), I don't think you'll even have the ability to think about how you're even with any other people... and it would be even worse, since you if you could retain some level of conscious thought you'd be aware that people you loved were suffering even as you were suffering... for eternity.

But then again, I don't think that hell (if it exists) would be like that per se. Nor would I think that people who end up in hell would be thinking about how other people feel, or they wouldn't have ended up there in the first place...
 

Lark

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I'm not sure if its scriptural but I definitely know that there are accounts from exorcists and others who have supposed encountered demons and in the course of the contact the demons have attacked their mistaken beliefs about hell stating that it is a state of perpetual isolation and torment, that all "folded in on themselves".

I tend to think that Clive Barker's depictions of hellscapes in The Hellbound Heart, ie singular chambers or cells, strike me as possibly accurate. Mind you he has said in interview I think that he intended the creatures and "hell" to be sort of alternate dimensional or alien as opposed to religious/occult, it makes me think of Michael Swanwick's version of demons in Jack Faust, they are a species of alien somehow aggrieved with life per se and humankind as a good example of it.

Anyway, that's as far as my speculation about hell goes, as to heaven, Jesus was asked about the woman who remarried a couple of times and who would be the husband in heaven, he said the question was folly, that it was earthbound thinking and the afterlife operated by a different set of rules.

Now I remember a religious education teacher tell me that this is really about Jewish teachers who at the time held that there was no afterlife, that people where made from animated dust, ie that God's breath had animated them, that when they died they returned to that state and where without consciousness or personal survival afterwards. So the important point was that Jesus was suggesting there was an afterlife and personal survival at all.

The thing about it is that you will, it is inevitable and should not be denied whether you believe in life everlasting or not, be seperated from your loved ones and experience a loss, they will die and no longer be there. It is not something that anyone who has loved ones wants to spend a lot of time thinking about and it is a painful and runeful process which the promise of eventually being reunited with them can in some way ameliorate or ease.

However, you come through that, so I would suppose that a healthy person can exist without their loved ones, which I think is the real question here and your fate should not be entirely dictated by your attachment to and the prescence of a loved one.

This may seem heartless but I've read quite a bit about this which was written by Eric Fromm, he writes about being motivated to study psychology when a family friend killed herself rather than live without her father who had himself deceased, his book The Art of Loving in part is response to this in which he tried to make distinctions between love and different obsessions or disorders which are often mistaken for love.

In the final instance though God is supposed to be a loved one, the seperation from which in this life is supposed to be painful enough, the seperation from which eternally is hell itself.
 

nozflubber

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yeah you pretty much hit on the hypocrisy of the Chrsitian God, haven't you?

Personally, I refuse to believe heaven is the highest form. The Elysian Fields where my lords Aristotle and Avicenna are present are the highest being a mortal can obtain. Any other delusion is a fragment from Satan and utter sin in its highest forms.

Philosophy and physics are your gods, mere mortals. Jesus is your Satan that leads you to murder one another in ever so Holy Bloodshed, so blessed be the blood of your slain! MURDER MORE in the name of CHRIST dear Christians, you will be Holy yet!!!

No Christian knows what they sow, and if Jesus is really real, no mortal mind can FATHOM what he reaps. Not for a fucking SECOND.


EDIT: its a good thing your title welcomed this voice, or else it would have else not reckoned. blessed be ye sinners who seek to hate, murder, and divorce on the grounds of land and birth.
 

Beorn

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Jesus has addressed this issue.

Matthew 10:34-39 ESV said:
[34] “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. [35] For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. [36] And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. [37] Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. [38] And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. [39] Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

I choose my heavenly father over my earthly father.
 

nozflubber

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And when your earthen father fails you, you will cry out for your heavenly.


Just the way a Greek should be murdered. With the righteous spear of the GODS and idols you worship.

My spear will have King of the Jews written all over it. that'll make it feel right.
 

Beorn

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Just the way a Greek should be murdered. With the righteous spear of the GODS and idols you worship.

My spear will have King of the Jews written all over it. that'll make it feel right.

Whatever you say, dude.
 

Usehername

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Most Christians view hell as separation from God, the inferno thing came out of a novel, didn't it?
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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If your loved ones, no matter who they may be, were destined for Hell for some reason... would you rather go with them and spend endless days in pain and torture, or would you spend an eternity without them?

I'd rather suffer forever with them. My family means the world to me.

I see Hell as essentially the same as death. So while I'd mourn their loss, I'd still choose to live on in Heaven. (Not much different from my views on death in this life really.)


Most Christians view hell as separation from God, the inferno thing came out of a novel, didn't it?

I've come to the conclusion that most Christians don't have a similar viewpoint on hardly anything. That includes their views on the afterlife.
 

cafe

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There are verses that indicate to me that Hell may be a place of torment (it's called 'the lake of fire' in one place, for example). I'm not exactly sure how it all works, but I believe that God is just and merciful and that only people who choose not to be with him will go away from him. I don't believe, if there is a literal hell, that one person would be any help to another or likely aware of the presence of loved ones, so my being there would be pointless.

I have put my faith in the mercy and justice of God, so I cannot simultaneously distrust him with the welfare of my loved ones. Nor would I invalidate their free will if they choose a different path than I have chosen.
 
F

figsfiggyfigs

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In Islam, from what I've heard, or remember; Apparently in heaven , you do not know your family. You're only a family on earth, after that, you're a happy person on your own.

I'd chose heaven, merely because I know my parents would do the same.

If I can switch places, I'd probably do that instead, and let them go to heaven in my place.

Lets work on the getting a " ticket for heaven" part first :p
 

strychnine

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If your loved ones, no matter who they may be, were destined for Hell for some reason... would you rather go with them and spend endless days in pain and torture, or would you spend an eternity without them?

I'd rather suffer forever with them. My family means the world to me.

What if you didn't actually remember your family while in heaven?
If god is omnipotent and all that jazz how hard would it be for him to just selectively blank your memory of ever having loved ones at all? Then you would not miss them. To me it would seem that this would be a prerequisite to paradise.
 

Totenkindly

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It's the complex convolution of stuff like this that makes me think our conception of the afterlife is completely and utterly wrong.

It's got to be more organic, natural, and sensible than this hodgepodge of excruciating damnation vs eternal bliss.
 

ragashree

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Most Christians view hell as separation from God, the inferno thing came out of a novel, didn't it?
It sounds like you might mean Dante's Divine Comedy (not exactly a novel, but never mind). I do suggest you actually read it though if you're interested, you probably won't get it otherwise, and the explanation would take far more time and energy than it's worth me expending here. ;)

It's the complex convolution of stuff like this that makes me think our conception of the afterlife is completely and utterly wrong.

It's got to be more organic, natural, and sensible than this hodgepodge of excruciating damnation vs eternal bliss.

"Got to be"? It sounds like you may know something I don't about the true nature of existence, please share your insights further! :popc1:
 

Nicodemus

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It's got to be more organic, natural, and sensible than this hodgepodge of excruciating damnation vs eternal bliss.
When your brain is depraved of oxygen for too long, you fitfully fade away, then you disappear forever. Is that not organic, natural, even beautiful?
 

Totenkindly

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"Got to be"? It sounds like you may know something I don't about the true nature of existence, please share your insights further! :popc1:

Let me rephrase: For it to have relevance to actual life, it's "got to be." Otherwise it's just conjecture and I no longer have use for it.

For a counterpoint, maybe we're all floating on the back of a giant turtle who is dancing on a puff of pink and purple cotton candy. Maybe that's true... but if it is, then who gives a flying fig?

I suppose if there is deity it could be capricious and capable of imposing a lot of stupid shit on people just to cause undue hardship and pain... but that's not the sort of deity I see worth believing in and if that leads me into the pit for eternity, so be it.

When your brain is depraved of oxygen for too long, you fitfully fade away, then you disappear forever. Is that not organic, natural, even beautiful?

That's one possibility. I'm a Christian agnostic/existentialist, and I see beauty in endings. Life doesn't have to last forever to be precious; and in fact perhaps endings make life even more precious. The choices we make as human beings are even more amazing and reflective of goodness if there is no guaranteed reward for making them.
 

ragashree

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Let me rephrase: For it to have relevance to actual life, it's "got to be." Otherwise it's just conjecture and I no longer have use for it.

For a counterpoint, maybe we're all floating on the back of a giant turtle who is dancing on a puff of pink and purple cotton candy. Maybe that's true... but if it is, then who gives a flying fig?

I suppose if there is deity it could be capricious and capable of imposing a lot of stupid shit on people just to cause undue hardship and pain... but that's not the sort of deity I see worth believing in and if that leads me into the pit for eternity, so be it.

Don't you think there's quite a big conjencture at the heart of your view that this life we can at present percieve is the "actual" one? ;) Those with a belief in the immaterial or the eternity of the human soul (and this isn't limited to the Christian faith) may in fact view our presence in this material world as a transitory state, and whatever takes place outside it, freed from the constraints of material existence, as the "true life".

Anyway, there's something interesting that strikes me about your view of a potential deity, which is that you seek to impose your own terms of reference and values upon her/him/it and think that the deity needs to be amenable to your definition of what it "should" be about to be worthy of your belief. It makes you seem very distant, speculative, essentially unconvinced and quite skeptical.

This puts you in a very different position from one who has a deep-rooted faith, because even the process of questioning it would in this case mean more that they sought to understand the true meaning behind the apparently contradictory information they had about that deity - to try to discern the will and purpose of God and make them more comprehensible. It's essentially a completely opposite philosophy, which brings me to my next point:

That's one possibility. I'm a Christian agnostic/existentialist, and I see beauty in endings. Life doesn't have to last forever to be precious; and in fact perhaps endings make life even more precious. The choices we make as human beings are even more amazing and reflective of goodness if there is no guaranteed reward for making them.

In view of what you've said here, and a lot of other stuff I've seen you say elsewhere, I'm a little unsure why you bother holding on to the "Christian" part of your identity. You might be culturally and by background a Christian (perhaps this is why you hold on to it) but your own beliefs seem pretty much wholly agnostic at this stage. You haven't exactly rejected faith outright, but appear largely dismissive of its relevance to how you live now.
 

Totenkindly

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Don't you think there's quite a big conjencture at the heart of your view that this life we can at present percieve is the "actual" one? ;) Those with a belief in the immaterial or the eternity of the human soul (and this isn't limited to the Christian faith) may in fact view our presence in this material world as a transitory state, and whatever takes place outside it, freed from the constraints of material existence, as the "true life".

Unfortunately, we all need a frame of reference... so we pick one.

I have no illusions about the fact that moment-by-moment I make a choice about what is true. There is nothing that is provable. It's all a choice on the part of the observer, and we all make it based on whatever criteria we personally value. While there might potentially be some "ultimate reality" out there and some of us might be more right than others, we have no way to confirm or know what that truth is; like the tagline for the movie "Solaris" suggests, "There are no answers... just choices."

Anyway, there's something interesting that strikes me about your view of a potential deity, which is that you seek to impose your own terms of reference and values upon her/him/it and think that the deity needs to be amenable to your definition of what it "should" be about to be worthy of your belief. It makes you seem very distant, speculative, essentially unconvinced and quite skeptical.

We all do that, sweetie.
... just like I said above.

Except we sometimes have different criteria.

Note that I started out believing a particular faith (conservative/Baptist Christianity) but over the years used my intellect to widen my vision further until finally I saw that having a particular belief was just another choice since there's nothing that can be conclusive to prove its veracity over something else.

At that point, there IS nothing left except trying to figure out what your values are and then embracing life through your values.

I can certainly choose to buy into someone ELSE'S priorities and view of existence... but why the hell would I want to do that? If nothing can be proven to be true, at least now I'm a coherent person, a congruent person, with my inner and outer aligned. Before I was living a fractured existence, with an incongruent identity; I was a fake even by my own standards.

I think it would be different if we could conclusively say that a particular deity was provable and true, vs another. But we can't.


This puts you in a very different position from one who has a deep-rooted faith, because even the process of questioning it would in this case mean more that they sought to understand the true meaning behind the apparently contradictory information they had about that deity - to try to discern the will and purpose of God and make them more comprehensible.

Like I said, that's how I spent the first 20-25 years of my life. I was very devout, very sincere, very faithful... but very tormented by the inconsistencies.

At some point, where you're faced with increasing cognitive dissonance, you have to reevaluate and decide if your initial framework is actually wrong and you have to start from scratch.

So that is what I did. The old model was no longer salvageable IMO and at that point it takes an act of courage to scrap it, take shit from all the other people who now label you as an apostate, and start over.

In view of what you've said here, and a lot of other stuff I've seen you say elsewhere, I'm a little unsure why you bother holding on to the "Christian" part of your identity. You might be culturally and by background a Christian (perhaps this is why you hold on to it) but your own beliefs seem pretty much wholly agnostic at this stage. You haven't exactly rejected faith outright, but appear largely dismissive of its relevance to how you live now.

You're totally right in that the two can be at war at each other. I'm only human and I tend to flip around and around within them, back and forth. I think it's also pretty evident in my personality even on this forum, where I probably seem to swing between social compassion and detached self-reliance; people can't tell whether I'm T or F sometimes, it's hard to get a bead on me, I suppose. I think life can be viewed through both lenses simultaneously, although there might seem to be a radical difference between both views.

I can only suggest that you should read Stephen Donaldson's "Thomas Covenant" series and see what you can glean from it. I read it for the first time when I was about twelve, but I reread the books every few years and they seem to open up more and more to me when I do so. It's the story about a leper who can't accept his fantasy world actually exists because his very life depends on retaining his coherence and sanity, yet he values the things in the Land and they grow to have meaning for him.

Anything of value in his life exists NOT in the world where he is a diseased and rejected leper, where his life is continuously at risk due to inadvertent physical harm he might cause to himself (since he can no longer feel things), where he is constantly judged by his peers for being diseased, it exists in this fantasy world that leaves him feeling alive and whole and connected.

In the end, he learns to walk between the poles of Belief and Unbelief and embrace both realities at once. Both are real; neither are real; but he can't abandon either. Ironically, there is also a Creator who is involved, but Covenant seems to become the Creator's proxy in the Land in a sense... he's autonomous and has power that can save or damn the earth.

Needless to say, the series had a profound impact on me. When all else fails, walk through the eye of the paradox...
 
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