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Why do religions hate gays so darn much?

Words of Ivory

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If you've been taught something your entire life that everyone agrees is common knowledge, and you've never been exposed to the thing itself, how are you going to know any different?
My parent's generation was a very conservative generation in Ireland, as is the country itself even to this day.

I was raised with people constantly telling me that homosexuality was wrong, and I never for an instance agreed with it, simply because my own basic common sense told me that being different doesn't make you a bad person. A person should be judged for what they do, not what they are.

If anything, I was adhering more to the words of the bible than they were, and I'm the agnostic one. Ironic, really.

This isn't a personal ego stroke, no matter how some of you may end up viewing it. If you look at my initial post, I expressly defended religion in this argument, and only condemned the extremists responsible for creating the propaganda that makes people believe that religion as a whole had an issue with homosexuality in the first place.

It's my belief that most people nowadays support homosexuality, including many religious people. Because they were willing to educate themselves as well.
 

Tewt

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Whilst I'm normally completely fine with people having their flaws or their own ways of approaching the many, many things that come our ways in life, this is one of the very few exceptions where I draw the line.

Ignorance is a choice. I've never considered "pressure" to be a valid excuse for not questioning things.

If a person is ignorant of something, they have two choice 1) Educate themselves about the subject it is that they're ignorant about, or 2) Wilfully remain ignorant. The latter I find deplorable.

Yeah, but many people will consider approaching religion/spiritual texts as educating themselves about a subject. That's the whole problem, imo.
 

Totenkindly

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Whilst I'm normally completely fine with people having their flaws or their own ways of approaching the many, many things that come our ways in life, this is one of the very few exceptions where I draw the line.

Ignorance is a choice. I've never considered "pressure" to be a valid excuse for not questioning things.

If a person is ignorant of something, they have two choice 1) Educate themselves about the subject it is that they're ignorant about, or 2) Wilfully remain ignorant. The latter I find deplorable.

So do I.

But you make it sound like it's a "simple thing"... as easy as choosing to accept something and educate themselves, which exactly is what they are expecting LGBT people to do.

Which is bull, frankly; and we're also talking about religious people in general while you're choosing to represent the whole religious class as this particular subset of "ignorant."

I'll be honest, my feelings toward my parents and extended family and sister are probably damaged forever because of their unwillingness to educate themselves enough to talk intelligently about my issues. I would care less if they could speak intelligently and simply disagree with me and could support their points (as I can respect some people here who disagree with me because they are able to discuss and communicate); but I will never be able to move past the reality that they have avoided change by choosing ignorance, at my expense. I still have people in my family who are angry at me and yet who have never ever talked to me about my situation, or tried to legitimately understand except to run to demagogues who tell them what they already want to believe (and then accuse me of being subverted, after I've educated myself to understand both sides); and I feel sold out and no longer really want or need them in my life that much. That level of abandonment kills the relationship dead.

So yes, I get what you are saying.

But I've also had to become aware of how difficult it is for both the generational thing (like Tilty says) and the religious thing (since often the religious beliefs are accepted or lost wholesale and they have a lot invested in those particular sets of beliefs). That has been another point of frustration -- that I have no way to even catalyze a change in our relationship. They're just too entrenched to move, even if they decided they should. It's not as easy as making a choice, and even if they made the choice, I'll doubt any of them will make it very far before they pass away.
 

Words of Ivory

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Which is bull, frankly; and we're also talking about religious people in general while you're choosing to represent the whole religious class as this particular subset of "ignorant."
No I'm not. I expressly said in my first post that it's not even the majority of people. Only the wilfully ignorance.

I'll be honest, my feelings toward my parents and extended family and sister are probably damaged forever because of their unwillingness to educate themselves enough to talk intelligently about my issues.
And those kind of people are the only people I'm condemning.

It's not as easy as making a choice, and even if they made the choice, I'll doubt any of them will make it very far before they pass away.
And this is where I disagree.

It's the difference between "learning" and "educating yourself". And that's a damn choice. Five minutes of reading would show them that what they believe is wrong. It is solely arrogance and stubbornness that stops an individual from allowing their beliefs and perceptions to change as they take in information.
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil."
- Socrates, Phædo 91
 

sleepy

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Homosexuality was considered mental illness until 1986.
Homosexuality and Mental Health

For older people, I can understand how something they've been counseled against their entire lives and their parents and grandparents before them, is now all of a sudden not even "sick" or "wrong" but completely ok, healthy and normal, even enough to raise children. It's a huge leap.

Yes. Like when people where told the earth was not flat with waterfalls on the edges down to ragnarock. That must have been some mindblowing thing to be told. And very hard to believe.

These things are not easy to comprehend or accept just out of the blue. It's simple for us now to accept this, but it took a long time to make this known, compared to guesses. I like notions such as the earth is round that is built on reasonably solid evidence. Even though it was damned hard to figure it out, I think it's worth it to put in the effort.
 
S

Sniffles

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A person should be judged for what they do, not what they are.

And you realise that it's homosexual acts that are actually condemned by Christianity not "orientation"(a concept that is completely alien to Biblical and Christian teachings and a product of the 19th century)?

One reason why it's so irritating to debate this issue is because many seek to impose modern concepts into contexts where they don't fit. So as a Christian, I have to spend extra time trying to explain what the original context actually is(assuming the people I'm debating are actually willing to listen).

I'm constantly puzzled as to why people constantly bring the issue up or ask "why does Christianity hate gays?" or list opposition to homosexuality within their top ten reasons for disagreeing with religion; largely because it's not much of an issue within the wider Christian tradition or the grand scheme of things as a whole. We suffer from "the importance of unimportant things" as Chesterton put it.

So yeah, I'm just not bothering.

For anybody interested:
Christian Antropology and Homosexuality
 

Words of Ivory

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And you realise that it's homosexual acts that are actually condemned by Christianity not "orientation"(a concept that is completely alien to Biblical and Christian teachings and a product of the 19th century)?
Yes, I'm aware of that. Not everyone else is. It's that minority I'm talking about. Some condemn simply being gay as the sin.

I'm not sure why my comment is being singled out. I was defending religion in my initial post.
 

ragashree

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And you realise that it's homosexual acts that are actually condemned by Christianity not "orientation"(a concept that is completely alien to Biblical and Christian teachings and a product of the 19th century)?

One reason why it's so irritating to debate this issue is because many seek to impose modern concepts into contexts where they don't fit. So as a Christian, I have to spend extra time trying to explain what the original context actually is(assuming the people I'm debating are actually willing to listen).

I'm constantly puzzled as to why people constantly bring the issue up or ask "why does Christianity hate gays?" or list opposition to homosexuality within their top ten reasons for disagreeing with religion; largely because it's not much of an issue within the wider Christian tradition or the grand scheme of things as a whole. We suffer from "the importance of unimportant things" as Chesterton put it.
Glad you made this point. I was just thinking of doing so myself after reading through this thread and seeing the pattern of assumptions being made. Mind you, I think a lot of people these days would still have an issue with religious condemnation of homosexual acts as being intrinsically sinful or immoral despite the importance of this particular distinction.
 

Coriolis

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Why do gays hate religion so much?
The gays I know are only put off by religions, or congregations, that are hostile to them. Few have found welcoming Christian churches. The best one finds is generally "love" coupled with the urge to "reform" the gay person, notwithstanding that sexual orientation is hard-wired in our brains. It is no more a choice than left-handedness, and we all know about those misguided attempts in the 50's and 60's to convert lefties to righties.

The idea here, (with respect to homosexuality), is that God created man and woman to reflect/image his nature, and His nature is to be a union of of diversity, (and, with respect to sexual ethics, there isn't the requisite diversity in a homosexual relationship to properly image the nature of God, specifically the diversity between masculine and feminine).
Everyone embodies both male and female archetypal traits to some degree. A gay couple will still mirror the male+female divine, but not in the same way as a straight couple, unless you only care about male-female duality on the physical level, but it is nonsensical to think of God with a physical body like ours anyway. It is spiritually that we individually and in our pairings reflect the divine and come together to create on all levels. In fact, this is the only way in which we really can.

Personally, I have a lot of mixed feelings about the topic. I consider myself a Christian and consider the Bible the inspired word of God. However, it seems unfair to me that something that appears to be largely out of a person's control is considered sin. It's very hard to be celibate one's whole life and it's also very lonely.
Your attitude is both compassionate and realistic. (It is surprising how the first often goes with the second, or how lack of the second interferes with the first.)

On the matter of abuse/perversion: one need look no further than the recent scandals in the Catholic priesthood, or the ever-present abuse by heterosexual parents, to see that abuse is not tied to sexual orientation. I agree, though, with whoever pointed out the harmful effects of feeling forced to repress a mature and consensual expression of one's sexual preferences.

On the matter of Biblical injunctions: if one wants to believe in the literal truth of the Bible, where is it OK to draw the line and decide we don't need to abide by that rule any more, as with consumption of shrimp, pork, etc? Even the NT contains proscriptions that are no longer followed, including many about women, though some of these die hard as well. Though not Christian, I prefer to focus on the figurative truths in the Bible, and the actual example of Jesus himself. I agree that much of Christians' (and others') attitude to gays comes from fear or discomfort of those who are different. For true haters, it is no longer PC to hate by race or even religion; that leaves GLBT as one remaining target.
 

Totenkindly

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It's the difference between "learning" and "educating yourself". And that's a damn choice. Five minutes of reading would show them that what they believe is wrong. It is solely arrogance and stubbornness that stops an individual from allowing their beliefs and perceptions to change as they take in information.

Honestly... good luck with that.

Let me know how much headway you make, since it's "just a choice." And if they don't make the choice you want, you've no choice on your end now but to label them as bad people.

As far as Peg's comments -- yeah, technically, the Bible is referring to "homosexual acts." The "homosexual persona" is a more recent invention at least on a wide-spread cultural basis.

Unfortunately, this leads into the current conflict. What feels natural for the one is not natural for the other and vice versa. One group says the other can stop "homosexual acts" regardless of their internal feelings; the others say that since their persona is gay, to ask them to stop homosexual acts is no different than asking straight people to remain celibate and is thus unreasonable.

It has also led to interesting interpretations like, "I can perform homosexual acts as long as I'm not a heterosexual person, because then it would be violating my inherent nature."
 

Words of Ivory

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Let me know how much headway you make, since it's "just a choice." And if they don't make the choice you want, you've no choice on your end now but to label them as bad people.
No.

If they make a choice that condemns people solely on what they are, or condemn harmless human acts as "bad", I'll label them as bad people.

And rightfully so.
 

Totenkindly

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No.

If they make a choice that condemns people solely on what they are, or condemn harmless human acts as "bad", I'll label them as bad people.

And rightfully so.

Is this INFJ lock?

Sorry, I'm TP.
I don't go there.
It's pointless and just perpetuates the hatred.
That attitude to me is exactly the same pattern that I despise in the people I was referring to earlier.
 

nozflubber

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Christians and muslims both feel that all homosexuality is a sin because its "unnatural" and seemingly contrary to "good organism order", but I believe that is incorrect. Mother nature has shown time and again that there is plenty of reason to have homosexual organisms around.
 
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IZthe411

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Thanks for explaining in more detail Owl, I just leart something new! :D



So having the thoughts/attraction isn't an issue, so long as you never act on it?

This is the exact way to look at it.

When God created Adam and Eve they were perfect, or made according to his standards. When they ate from that tree, they effectively told God they don't need his guidance. That's sin. So from that point they lost their perfect standing with God, and they began to age and die. Genesis 2:17 shows that death only came into the picture as consequence for disobedience.
That death sentence also passed along to their offspring, who came along after the sentence. Imperfection as well. Instead of just killing off Adam and Eve and the Devil, who caused all this to happen, he has allowed things to go on because the issue of God's right to rule has been raised. In addition to Adam, Eve, and the Devil, there were many other intelligent life forms looking on. If God had destroyed them, he would have demonstrated that he was the most powerful, but that did not prove he had the right to rule. So his solution was to let time pass to show and prove. He said he'd help those who looked to him, as opposed for those who chose to do things their own way- he doesn't make bad happen them, but the withdrawal of his blessing makes it more likely that bad happens.


So humans now live with a host of imperfections. Homosexuality is one of many manifestations of it. Whether it's something learned or something that you are born with is irrelevent- it's a sin, and the practicers of what is sinful is what God disapproves. The best we can do is exercise our faith in Christ, who came to Earth and died for our sins. That's how we are helped to not give in to our sinful tendencies- in relative terms. In Matthew Jesus compares himself to a ransom who came to exchange his soul as a ransom for many. If sin was a master, when Adam messed up, he sold us into slavery. Jesus paid the price to release us from sin.

God doesn't hate gay people, he hates the practice of homosexuality, and any other practice of sin, which is tantamount to giving in to our imperfections and not looking to him for help.
 

Totenkindly

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If its an attitude I end up being despised for, well... :shrug:

Note that I did not say that.
I picked my words very carefully.

... Mother nature has shown time and again that there is plenty of reason to have homosexual organisms around.

Like...?

...and yeah, IZthe411, regardless of whether it's true, that does sound like one of the typical cases that gets made and explains the rationality of the opposition.
 

nozflubber

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Well Jenn i don't have a good academic source but this illustrates the point - Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - "In early February 2004 the New York Times reported that a male pair of chinstrap penguins in the Central Park Zoo in New York City had successfully hatched and fostered a female chick from a fertile egg they had been given to incubate.[7] Other penguins in New York zoos have also been reported to have formed same-sex pairs.[40] [41]

Zoos in Japan and Germany have also documented homosexual male penguin couples.[23][24] The couples have been shown to build nests together and use a stone as a substitute for an egg. Researchers at Rikkyo University in Tokyo found 20 homosexual pairs at 16 major aquariums and zoos in Japan."

Homosexual organisms still have the desire to help cultivate the young and take care of others. They also are successful at many labors, skills, talents needed for the division of labor. To make a really absurd and possibly offensive type analogy, homosexuals can make great ESFJ-providers.

The people that say homosexuality has no useful function (IE "imperfection", a dubious inference no less) usually do so on the basis that for any species to survive, there needs to be a male-female coupling, and their point is very much indisputable. However, that does not necessitate that there must/ought to be all and only male-female couplings. Male-male and female-female matings in pro-social mammals can take on a caretaker/nurturer aspect for that species. Much like the worker drone ant lives out his days and dies for his species without reproducing, so does the homosexual male and female for our species.
 

Nonsensical

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because if you aren't a middle class, church going, straight christian, white american, then God doesn't love you.

Fuck that shit. Fuck Christianity.
 

Spamtar

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Naw its cool if they are hot looking womez (lipstick lesbians) or hot female bisexuals who will bring a hottie chick friend to their boyfriends house. Its pretty nasty if its dudes or ugly women. God never smited cities with fire and brimstone for having cotton blends or eating pork either...so it appears to be an act which is high on his shit list.

Regardless of what the bible/religions may or may not infer...live and let live as I always say.

In fact its a good precedent to support gay rights because as long as they can sodomize each other than the more safe I am to be allowed to sodomize womez. Hell I don't even mind if people fuck animals as long as long as the animal likes it and nobody forces me to watch it.

I don't mind lesbians adopting kids but I would be uncomfortable about two men adopting a child because of the greater chances that they might be pedophiles and what a fucked life that kid would have if they indeed were.
 
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