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Why do religions hate gays so darn much?

Totenkindly

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Wow, that part jumped out at me the most, I didn't expect to hear that there were still people who linked homosexuality with child molestation.

Yes, when I described the "politicization" of the issue up above, it was fearmongering things like this that I was referring to -- the same sort of fear that drives people to claim transpeople will molest children in the bathroom (and those claims were specifically made by candidates running for office at various places around the country even this past year, or pushed by various groups over the last few years).

The politicization of talk shows and radio shows also contributes to this -- there are various main figures in media culture who spearhead and stir up emotions like this, for whatever reason. Perhaps some of them do it in order to feel powerul and acquire attention and money; others might do it because they tie LGBT issues in with a degredation of the culture and so they are fighting to preserve a way of life they believe to be the best. I only bring it up in this thread because there's not a clear-cut delineation between religion and political groups here, the line is very muddy in terms of what is influencing what.
 

Totenkindly

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Yes, but it goes down even further. God cannot impose just any role on his creatures. The role a creature ought to fulfill is based on what that creature is--what God made that creature to be. God couldn't create a tree frog and then assign that frog a role in the tundra while simultaneously expecting it to thrive. The idea here, (with respect to homosexuality), is that God created man and woman to reflect/image his nature, and His nature is to be a union of of diversity, (and, with respect to sexual ethics, there isn't the requisite diversity in a homosexual relationship to properly image the nature of God, specifically the diversity between masculine and feminine). In this sense, homosexual couples would be like tree frogs in the tundra: they'd be existentially fucked.*

This is why Christians are so homophobic (imo).

I always have appreciated the thoughtfulness of your posts, Owl.
You have explained this concept very well, I've observed this argument a great deal since I've tried to unravel this topic myself.

I think where I'm unsure is that I can't tell whether this notion is actually driving the opposition or whether it's one of the rationalizations people use to justify their fear of change. Maybe it differs from person to person? I think I have seen both types... or mixes of them...
 

sleepy

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I've talked about it with my mother and she pretty firmly believes that, since homosexuals practice one form of sexual perversion, that they are more likely to sexually molest children.
This may even be true within some branches of repressed religious homosexuality. As repression, shame etc, longing for a lost childhood can make one seek out children to relive what one have been denied. Within the church these stories are endless, and seems to pile up on another.

I just read this article yesterday, this seems plausible to me. It's also interesting to note that these child molesters, both from a church pov and the molester prefers paedophilia to gayness.

Masculine gays committing many atrocities
According to Langfeldt, not all perpetrators of this group aware of their orientation. Others deny their homosexuality altogether, and choose instead to define themselves as pedophiles

The Catholic Church denies a connection between homosexuality in their own ranks and the perpetrators. The characteristics of the perpetrators as pedophiles rather than gays.

- Now the church will go even further and say that those who are sexually interested in boys between 14-16 years are also sick. They are not gays, but fedofile - concerned with youth, "said Langfeldt.
 

cafe

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Wow, that part jumped out at me the most, I didn't expect to hear that there were still people who linked homosexuality with child molestation.
I don't know how common it is. My mom is nearly 62, FWIW.


Ah, I guess that would explain why studies that contradict with Christian views on abortion and gay rights aren't welcomed, there's more at stake here than abortion and gay rights.
Yeah. A lot of fear of the unknown and fear very often leads to hate.


Do you find it common for people who view homosexuality as a sin share your view on that, the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" idea that is?
First let me say that I'm fairly bitter about a lot of attitudes that many people who share my faith hold, so I'm not unbiased by any means. No, I don't find it common. What I've seen is more akin to a special kind of loathing reserved just for that particular sin. They say that they love, but they almost cringe as they say it and if a homosexual is or becomes a believer, they cannot reconcile any homosexual practice and barely any homosexual desires/temptations with that person's faith, if that makes sense. It's as if they fear it's contagious.
 

Kasper

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Thanks for explaining in more detail Owl, I just leart something new! :D

No, if by "sexuality" you mean what a person finds arousing. I see no reason to deny that a person could both recognize the force of teleological arguments against homosexual behavior yet still be aroused by homosexual thoughts or behavior.

So having the thoughts/attraction isn't an issue, so long as you never act on it?

Yes, when I described the "politicization" of the issue up above, it was fearmongering things like this that I was referring to -- the same sort of fear that drives people to claim transpeople will molest children in the bathroom (and those claims were specifically made by candidates running for office at various places around the country even this past year, or pushed by various groups over the last few years).

I don't feel as though we see it as much here, I expect the fact that our politics are a lot more separated from religion, and we're not as religious as the States would be the reasons why. The figures have 60% of the population here supporting gay marriage.

I think where I'm unsure is that I can't tell whether this notion is actually driving the opposition or whether it's one of the rationalizations people use to justify their fear of change. Maybe it differs from person to person? I think I have seen both types... or mixes of them...

They seem that closely linked that it's too hard to tell.
 

Seymour

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I think large, long-lived institutions tend to be conservative, especially about areas they consider their charge. I also think that sexuality is a very emotionally charged topic and people look for rational reasons to back-up their emotional responses. People initially often have an "ick" response when confronted with homosexuality... it's hard for that not to have an affect.

Plus, institutions like marriage do have a big effect on the quality of a child's upbringing. We know that children do better when raised in a stable loving home with two parents (extended family optional). A church should want to foster an environment that is good for its members. Eventually channeling sexual behavior into stable relationships is part of that.

My background is that of an American Evangelical and, as I understand it, homosexual acts are considered sin in the Christian scriptures. If you really stretch and twist, it's possible to interpret it otherwise, but it really is a stretch. Not only is it sin, it's called an abomination, which I believe means really bad sin. Evangelicals and Fundamental Christians (and I use fundamental the way Fundamental Christians mean it) generally put a lot of emphasis on literal interpretations of the scriptures.

Actually, the word translated as "abomination" is perhaps better translated as taboo or "unclean." As is often pointed out, the Bible states that mixed fiber clothing is an abomination, as are shrimp. I think it's hard for all of us (liberal or conservative) to take off our cultural blinders when reading the Bible, since it was written from a very different social context.

In the eighties, when it became clear that the US was becoming more and more secular, a political movement was started in order to attempted to reverse the trend. There have been a handful of areas where attention and energies have been focused. Abortion rights, gay rights, and religious rights tend to be the top ones.

I think there have been time periods of greater secularism in the United States and periods of religious revival ("Great Awakenings" and the like). However, I think the recent focus on abortion and homosexuality (since the Moral Majority in the 80s) has been convenient because those issues are both polarizing and are things done by people "out there in the world." This makes them better issues for fundraising and projection than the previous big evangelical issue of divorce (which was seen as an issue affecting congregations themselves).

That doesn't mean that thoughtful people can't be genuinely against homosexuality, of course.


Like Jennifer said, sex is always a big focus of everything in the US, so here, at least, it's going to get a lot of attention. What I've heard during my years attending church and listening to para-church groups is that homosexual normalization causes the country to slide further away from God and righteousness. Some fear that God will punish a nation that, by their standards, embrace homosexual relationships. I've talked about it with my mother and she pretty firmly believes that, since homosexuals practice one form of sexual perversion, that they are more likely to sexually molest children.

And it's clear why with 1950s "educational" videos like like: [YOUTUBE="A5VNe9NTOxA"]boys beware[/YOUTUBE]
Note that according to most modern studies, homosexuals are no more or less likely to molest people than anyone else. Also note that the gender of children chosen by child molesters made not match the abusers' sexual orientation with adults (if any).

No, if by "sexuality" you mean what a person finds arousing. I see no reason to deny that a person could both recognize the force of teleological arguments against homosexual behavior yet still be aroused by homosexual thoughts or behavior.

As Jennifer mentions, I just don't think those teleological arguments really form the basis of anyone's opinions. They also ignore that "homosexual behavior" is observed in the natural world, as well... as is asexual reproduction and the like. It's blindingly obvious that sexual reproduction is needed for the continuation of any species that only reproduces sexually. However, that doesn't mean that every individual must reproduce sexually—I haven't noticed we human beings having an underpopulation problem—or that not reproducing sexually is wrong.

One could use a similar argument to argue against modern medicine, since it's the nature of pneumonia, influenza, etc to infect and kill weakened people. It's the nature of our immune systems to be strengthened by fighting off infections naturally. It's the nature of an over-populated species to be decimated by plagues, etc.

I don't feel as though we see it as much here, I expect the fact that our politics are a lot more separated from religion, and we're not as religious as the States would be the reasons why. The figures have 60% of the population here supporting gay marriage.

We just passed the 50% mark of support here in the U.S. (of course that varies a lot from state to state). I think it is the intersection of the religious and political that make the "gay marriage" and "gay rights" debates so tendentious here.
 

cafe

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Actually, the word translated as "abomination" is perhaps better translated as taboo or "unclean." As is often pointed out, the Bible states that mixed fiber clothing is an abomination, as are shrimp. I think it's hard for all of us (liberal or conservative) to take off our cultural blinders when reading the Bible, since it was written from a very different social context.
I make an effort to do that and frankly, I did a study on the subject hoping very much to dismiss from my mind the belief that homosexual acts are considered sin in the Bible. Granted, I'm no expert, but I have a reasonable handle on hermeneutics. As one that leans toward a literal interpretation of the Bible I can't honestly and in good conscience say that the Bible doesn't teach that homosexual acts are sinful.

It's not just an obscure verse in the Old Testament. It's in the New Testament and in more than one place. There are moral things that are called abominations along with things that seem minor to us now, like shellfish and mixed fabrics. I would love to be wrong. It would set my mind and heart at ease, but so far I haven't seen a compelling argument by Evangelical standards. I would like very much to see one.
 

Seymour

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I make an effort to do that and frankly, I did a study on the subject hoping very much to dismiss from my mind the belief that homosexual acts are considered sin in the Bible. Granted, I'm no expert, but I have a reasonable handle on hermeneutics. As one that leans toward a literal interpretation of the Bible I can't honestly and in good conscience say that the Bible doesn't teach that homosexual acts are sinful.

It's not just an obscure verse in the Old Testament. It's in the New Testament and in more than one place. There are moral things that are called abominations along with things that seem minor to us now, like shellfish and mixed fabrics. I would love to be wrong. It would set my mind and heart at ease, but so far I haven't seen a compelling argument by Evangelical standards. I would like very much to see one.

I've spent time with those verses myself, trying to make sense of them and reconcile them to my personal experience and my limited understanding of the nature of God. Being gay and raised fundamentalist, it was a matter of some concern.

I'd highly recommend Dirt, Greed and Sex by L. William Countryman, then. He doesn't quite convince me on every point (there's one New Testament verse in particular where I find his interpretation strained), but he is fairly convincing in a number of areas... and definitely gives a good model for how differently some aspects of culture (marriage for example) were seen in Old Testament in particular. I can try to sum up some of his arguments, but not being a Bible, Hebrew or Greek scholar, I doubt I'd do them justice.
 

cafe

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I've spent time with those verses myself, trying to make sense of them and reconcile them to my personal experience and my (limited) understanding of the nature of God. Being gay and raised fundamentalist, it was a matter of some concern.

I'd highly recommend Dirt, Greed and Sex by L. William Countryman, then. He doesn't quite convince me on every point (there's one New Testament verse in particular where I find his interpretation strained), but he is fairly convincing in a number of areas... and definitely gives a good model for how differently some aspects of culture (marriage for example) were seen in Old Testament, in particular. I can try to sum up some of his arguments, but not being a Bible, Hebrew or Greek scholar, I doubt I'd do them justice.
Thank you! I will look into it.
 

Words of Ivory

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The reality of the matter is that the heterosexual hatred tends to stem from the extreme evangelical types, which there are unfortunately a few too many of.

The bible itself only makes a handful of mentions towards homosexuality as a sin, which are almost exclusively contained in the Old Testament. There are passages in the bible that go so far as to consider a man shaving to be a sin, but you don't see anyone sticking to that, do you?

Those who decide to follow the evangelists who spout this kind of homosexual hated are just too stupid to think for themselves, and probably haven't even read a single page of the bible of the religious they proport to believe in. Thankfully, most people aren't that ignorant.
 

Totenkindly

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Yes folks the only real purpose behind religion(s) is to bash gays. :rolli:

Yay! I'm going to make t-shirts and sell them and give you half the profit, partner! :smile:

... well, maybe just 33%. After all, you only created the slogan; I had to do all the footwork.

Next comes coffee mugs, turnip twiddlers, bumper stickers, and butt tattooes!
 
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I could actually imagine an ironic butt tattoo that said "No butt-f*cking here" or something along those lines.
 

Risen

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Religions reject it because it doesn't seem to flow with the natural order of things, a particularly important distinction in the old world when people had a much more limited view on the nature of the world we live in.
 

Tiltyred

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Homosexuality was considered mental illness until 1986.
Homosexuality and Mental Health

For older people, I can understand how something they've been counseled against their entire lives and their parents and grandparents before them, is now all of a sudden not even "sick" or "wrong" but completely ok, healthy and normal, even enough to raise children. It's a huge leap.
 

Words of Ivory

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For older people, I can understand how something they've been counseled against their entire lives and their parents and grandparents before them, is now all of a sudden not even "sick" or "wrong" but completely ok, healthy and normal, even enough to raise children. It's a huge leap.
Not for anyone capable of thinking for themselves, it isn't.
 

Totenkindly

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Not for anyone capable of thinking for themselves, it isn't.

Ummm.... actually, yeah it is.

Not everyone keys off the internal by nature.

A lot of people are designed to key off external source and not trust the inner voice.

And please don't think I'm making excuses for them, because I've been bitten in the butt badly (and continue to be) by those sorts of people, I'm pissed off right now at some family members for this sort of behavior in recent circumstances... but I've become pretty aware that it's extremely difficult for some types of people to look at situations in new ways until there's enough social pressure to force them to do so.

Your sort of comment is about in lines with their extreme notion that gay people can just "stop being gay and be happy being straight."
 

Tiltyred

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If you've been taught something your entire life that everyone agrees is common knowledge, and you've never been exposed to the thing itself, how are you going to know any different?
 

Words of Ivory

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And please don't think I'm making excuses for them, because I've been bitten in the butt badly (and continue to be) by those sorts of people, I'm pissed off right now at some family members for this sort of behavior in recent circumstances... but I've become pretty aware that it's extremely difficult for some types of people to look at situations in new ways until there's enough social pressure to force them to do so.
Whilst I'm normally completely fine with people having their flaws or their own ways of approaching the many, many things that come our ways in life, this is one of the very few exceptions where I draw the line.

Ignorance is a choice. I've never considered "pressure" to be a valid excuse for not questioning things.

If a person is ignorant of something, they have two choice 1) Educate themselves about the subject it is that they're ignorant about, or 2) Wilfully remain ignorant. The latter I find deplorable.
 

Jeffster

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Religions don't hate anyone. A religion does not have a brain, and thus is incapable of emotion.
 
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