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Why do religions hate gays so darn much?

Kasper

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The most recent news story written here in Oz about adoption rights and once again it's Christian lobby groups urging politicians to reject the bill that would allow same rights for all regardless of sexuality. Now that specific story doesn't matter so much, it's just typical, whenever a topic of gay rights comes up the people jumping up and down attempting to squash them are Christian organisations.

Why does religion see homosexuality as so darn evil?
 

Lark

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OK, I am a practice member of the RCC, I've never in 31 years heard a sermon about homosexuality or homosexual rights, for reasons altogether removed and different from my religious faith I oppose moves like this one.

reject the bill that would allow same rights for all regardless of sexuality

Its funny, there's a time that particular orientations tried to assert themselves in their distinctiveness and now its "hey, we all the same", I can think of a host of reasons why I could and wouldnt support this practice and approach to sexual orientation.

For one I'm heternormative and make no bones about that, people can support something else if they want but I'll oppose them, wont hate them, which implies a special feeling for them I dont have, but simply wont support the sort of society they want to create. What are the objective projected stats to suggest that alternatives to heterosexual parenting and commit are beneficial etc. Do you know that the stats for sustained, successful homosexual coupling are relative to thos of heterosexuals?

Social services remove young children from grandparents and arrange adoption by gay couple - Telegraph

For another as Peguy has said before sexual orientation should be an irrelevence, in most of the instances and questions which are being dealt with, instead its used as an opportunity to profile a particular, generally minority, perhaps even a smaller minority than is supposed if, as I believe, you where able to control for behaviours which are too quickly welcomed or accepted as a particular orientation when its anything but.

Another reason is the massive element of compulsion and coercion here, this is also part of the reason why the religious angle is seized upon, although I do think its for the most part liberal attempts to attack religious faith or authority with any pretext, but these organisation still do provide many adoption and social services in some parts of the world. They also operate under very specific precepts. At an earlier time EVERYONE would have campaigned against the state interfering with that so long as it did not result in any harm to anyone.

Now the idea is to do the opposite and children WILL suffer if a choice has to be made between conforming to the cultural agenda of a minority of homosexuals (truthfully I believe it is, any of the homosexuals I know in real life are not as interested in these topics as liberal women, in the main) and a majority of liberals and religion haters and providing a service. I just think that's wrong.

In the case of adoption services or fostering services the rights of the child should be paramount, when that is forgotten child welfare is jeopardised as it was in the UK when social workers to afraid of being accused of bigotry when visiting a homosexual male couple failed to pick up on their sexual abuse, including the creation of a catalogue of photos, of a number of males in their care.

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Bradford | Foster carers jailed over abuse

The reality is that the topic of homosexuality and how it has been politicised by friend and foe has made it impossible to talk about, people view highly partisan opinion to be reasonable and reasonable alone, anything threatening that perspective is unwelcome and its one of the few topics that people feel they can and will blow their top about and be justified in doing so because obviously anyone who feels differently than they do are bigots. Which in a different time or place would have been the attitude of someone who couldnt have a challenge to, for instance, aryanism.

If you take the premise of this thread alone, what's the basis for changing this law, sexual orientation? Simply that? How many kids you going to effect by that move? Its not even an objective or right consideration of the issue its instead a race to respective fox holes to play goodies and baddies again.
 

Kasper

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I have no interest in getting into the debate of adoption, that was merely an example. I want to know what religion has against homosexuality.
 

Lark

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I have no interest in getting into the debate of adoption, that was merely an example. I want to know what religion has against homosexuality.

Oh alright.

Then I call you on this, this is a flag of convenience and you're simply attacking religion. Its the forum sport and I dont need to talk to you any further.

Why do gays hate religion so much?
 

Kasper

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Then I call you on this, this is a flag of convenience and you're simply attacking religion.

No. I'm asking a genuine question.

In a debate about gay rights, in any context, I can learn little from those who oppose changes, I've heard it all before, again and again. What I am interested in understanding is the motivation of the church to discriminate against a person based on their sexuality.

Its the forum sport and I dont need to talk to you any further.

If it bothers you then I suggest you don't. *shrug*

However you have your views, I have mine, they are very different but have no intention of attempting to change yours, I don't understand why we can't have a conversation about them. I am curious about this topic.

Why do gays hate religion so much?

As there are people who are both gay and religious I don't understand your question.
 

Lark

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Then I dont understand yours, the reality is that they dont hate homosexuals, they are simply heteronormative.

I really dont think this is a philosophy and spirituality topic, its politics, you've also here said that you dont understand how we cant converse on this when you're previous post to me was telling me you didnt want to talk about it, at least in so far as it pertains to the original point, ie adoption, in this post here itself you've said you've heard it all before: I can learn little from those who oppose changes, I've heard it all before, again and again. Not a great place to begin.

Instead you write: What I am interested in understanding is the motivation of the church to discriminate against a person based on their sexuality.

I loaded deck to say the very, very least. So, no, I dont believe you are interested in a conversation, I think you're interested in portraying all those who hold the position you're admittedly opposed to as either loons or bigots.

Which is characteristic of the liberal-gay culture kampf, there's so much emoting its incredible, and also why I think its legitimate for anyone, from any perspective, to want to oppose the recasting of society in this image to the bitter end.
 

Thalassa

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Then I dont understand yours, the reality is that they dont hate homosexuals, they are simply heteronormative.

No, she's right. There are a lot of religious people who hate gays. Openly HATE. Use the word hate - even claim that God hates them, and occasionally participate in lynchings.

But of course "liberal women" don't think clearly, and of course if they aren't NTJs they must perpetually live in a state of panic attack, so why take our opinions seriously when you can self-congratulate instead.
 

Kasper

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you've also here said that you dont understand how we cant converse on this when you're previous post to me was telling me you didnt want to talk about it, at least in so far as it pertains to the original point, ie adoption

The original point was not adoption.

in this post here itself you've said you've heard it all before: I can learn little from those who oppose changes, I've heard it all before, again and again. Not a great place to begin.

Which is why I'm not interested in debating the finer details of adoption or marriage or so on, I want to learn something not have the same things I've heard a million times regurgitated for me.

I loaded deck to say the very, very least. So, no, I dont believe you are interested in a conversation, I think you're interested in portraying all those who hold the position you're admittedly opposed to as either loons or bigots.

Then leave the thread, you have misread my motives in a major way. I understand your defensiveness as you expect people to jump on you for your views and if that happens sorry but it is not my intent.
 

Totenkindly

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OK, I am a practice member of the RCC, I've never in 31 years heard a sermon about homosexuality or homosexual rights, for reasons altogether removed and different from my religious faith I oppose moves like this one.

Congrats. I think it's been clarified for you over and over again that over here in the States it's par for the course. We hear this junk over and over again in the pulpit -- both RC and Protestant branches -- and we have many religious groups who get involved up to and past the legal limit of sexuality politics. Face it, in the US sexuality is the big taboo (not just homosexuality) far more than violence or anything else, and people get really up in arms about controlling it as much as possible.

Kas isn't from the States, though, and I have no idea what Oz is like.

However, I don't like the leap in the OP from "Christian groups vocal against homosexuality" to "all religion is against homosexuality."
Religion is far more than just some sects of Christianity, and specific beliefs / expression of belief can change from geographical location to geographical location.

Then I dont understand yours, the reality is that they dont hate homosexuals, they are simply heteronormative.

No, that's not just it.

The heteronormativity means they might not naturally UNDERSTAND homosexuality, but how people respond to something shows whether they are responding out of curiosity or desire to comprehend (even if they end up being against it for other reasons) or whether they are reacting out of fear and, yes, Lark, hatred. A person can be heteronormative without being a schlunk about it and without spreading obvious distortion and lies and trying to create fear-mongering attitudes. That actually happens in our culture; it makes discussion pointless and frustrating as hell over here; and it's not even like there's a choice about having to engage because people are actively fighting to push laws to inhibit the other side. So there is no "let's agree to disagree" which can happen in reasonable discussion; no, people are damned set on controlling the society.

If you can't handle a discussion on those grounds, then maybe it's appropriate for you to bail. You seem to be the one overreacting to Kas's comments here.

I loaded deck to say the very, very least. So, no, I dont believe you are interested in a conversation, I think you're interested in portraying all those who hold the position you're admittedly opposed to as either loons or bigots.

Yeah. Because that is so much what her posting style has always been on this forum. Kas is synonymous with loaded language, unfair discussion strategies, and trying to pinpoint anyone who disagrees with her as a loon or bigot.

Which is characteristic of the liberal-gay culture kampf, there's so much emoting its incredible, and also why I think its legitimate for anyone, from any perspective, to want to oppose the recasting of society in this image to the bitter end.

Wow.
 

Lark

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The original point was not adoption.

Well, you asked why religious people "hate" pro-gay legislation and provided a context, I answered in that context.

Now if you're looking for, "Well, religious people are obviously all hatred driven loons and bigots" then perhaps you'll have to find your validation elsewhere.

Which is why I'm not interested in debating the finer details of adoption or marriage or so on, I want to learn something not have the same things I've heard a million times regurgitated for me.

Perhaps you're simply not interested. I've encountered this a million times too, not sure its regurgitation but people sure could do with investing in a Parrot.

Then leave the thread, you have misread my motives in a major way. I understand your defensiveness as you expect people to jump on you for your views and if that happens sorry but it is not my intent.

I'm pretty sure I understand your intent. Anyway, you guys can carry on.
 

Kasper

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Now if you're looking for, "Well, religious people are obviously all hatred driven loons and bigots" then perhaps you'll have to find your validation elsewhere.

It would be ludicrous to suggest that all religion is anti-gay. Of course that's not the case. But there is obviously a scriptural base for having beliefs against gays as it is a common theme in Abrahamic religions. I want to understand how that translates into the modern day as not all scriptural bases are followed.

Kas isn't from the States, though, and I have no idea what Oz is like.

I don't either to be honest, religion isn't a big part of life here, at least not in the way it appears to be in the States. And yet it does still play a role. One of the reasons I'm interested in understanding better is our Atheist Prime Minister has touted religious traditions as the reason gay marriage won't be considered, clearly there is pressure in my country from religious groups. There is also a religious based political party that would encourage discrimination against homosexuals. I want to understand the rationale behind that.

However, I don't like the leap in the OP from "Christian groups vocal against homosexuality" to "all religion is against homosexuality."
Religion is far more than just some sects of Christianity, and specific beliefs / expression of belief can change from geographical location to geographical location.

Naturally, nothing is ever black and white. I worded it as such as I don't want PC answers.

What's your understanding of religious objection to homosexuality?
 

Owl

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once again it's Christian lobby groups urging politicians to reject the [...] it's just typical, whenever a topic of gay rights comes up the people jumping up and down attempting to squash them are Christian organisations.

Why does religion see homosexuality as so darn evil?

I'll echo Jennifer. Not all religions see homosexuality as evil. But I will try to unpack why homosexuality is so widely considered evil within Christendom.

First, and probably most prevalent, is the teleological argument, or the argument from design. This argument, (in the versions I know), aren't valid, but they are inductively strong. (imo, anyway. At least, I'd hope that they would give a person pause before committing to a homosexual lifestyle).

If these are resisted, I'd retreat to the position that God is both masculine and feminine...

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them (Gen 1:27, NIV).

And that man, as created in the image of God, is meant to image God as faithfully as possible. (I.e., goodness does not simply supervene over any property that you share with God; the more you fall short of imaging God faithfully, then the more evil you are. Thus, we humans ought to strive to reflect God's essential properties in our lives to the greatest degree possible, and as God is composed of a complimentary union of masculine and feminine properties, then we ought to strive to reflect these properties in our live s to the greatest extent possible. Homosexual unions, as it is maintained within conservative Christian circles, cannot faithfully reflect this essential aspect of God; therefore, homosexuals fail to reflect this aspect of God in their lives; therefore homosexuals are evil to the extent that they fail to reflect this essential property of God.)

Capiche?


Admittedly, this position assumes the authority of scripture, and it interprets scripture in its own way, requiring its own hermeneutic. If you don't consider the bible a source of revealed knowledge apart from that which can be known to all persons at all times... then, if you still want to know why (many/most) Christians think homosexuality is evil, you need to understand why Christians think the bible is a source of revealed knowledge--but that is a different question--and then you can start to parse Christian arguments concerning homosexuality*.

In conclusion, if you want to understand why Christians think homosexuality is evil, and the teleological argument doesn't hold water with you, then read Leviticus 19, Romans 1, 1 Cor. 6... perhaps there's even more.

*If any Christian on this board can produce or adduce an argument that logically shows homosexuality is impermissible from General Revelation, please do so.
 

Kasper

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I'll echo Jennifer. Not all religions see homosexuality as evil. But I will try to unpack why homosexuality is so widely considered evil within Christendom.

Thank you!

First, and probably most prevalent, is the teleological argument, or the argument from design. This argument, (in the versions I know), aren't valid, but they are inductively strong. (imo, anyway. At least, I'd hope that they would give a person pause before committing to a homosexual lifestyle).

Does that approach have to view sexuality as a choice?

If these are resisted, I'd retreat to the position that God is both masculine and feminine...

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them (Gen 1:27, NIV).

And that man, as created in the image of God, is meant to image God as faithfully as possible. (I.e., goodness does not simply supervene over any property that you share with God; the more you fall short of imaging God faithfully, then the more evil you are. Thus, as God is composed of a complimentary union of masculine and feminine properties, then we humans ought to strive to reflect God's essential properties in our lives to the greatest degree possible. Homosexual unions, as it is maintained within conservative Christian circles, cannot faithfully reflect this essential aspect of God; therefore, homosexuals fail to reflect this aspect of God in their lives; therefore homosexuals are evil to the extent that they fail to reflect this essential property of God.)

Capiche?

So that one comes down to the roles that God created man and woman to fill, the further you deviate from that the more evil?
 

Qlip

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Honestly, a person can throw around scriptures all they want, but when it comes down to it any religion selectively and interpretively follows scriptures. After all, the Old Testament forbids cotton wool blends along with homosexuality, one is 'wrong' and one is o-ok.

I think when it comes down to it, fundamental type Christianity will never be comfortable with homosexuality because it has no model of how to deal with it. Of course there have been gays through out time, but I imagine they kept it on the down low, or joined the clergy. But there's no 'official' instructions on gays being productive and happy members of society, and the robot types can't deal without having instructions on how to deal with things.
 

cafe

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My background is that of an American Evangelical and, as I understand it, homosexual acts are considered sin in the Christian scriptures. If you really stretch and twist, it's possible to interpret it otherwise, but it really is a stretch. Not only is it sin, it's called an abomination, which I believe means really bad sin. Evangelicals and Fundamental Christians (and I use fundamental the way Fundamental Christians mean it) generally put a lot of emphasis on literal interpretations of the scriptures.

In the eighties, when it became clear that the US was becoming more and more secular, a political movement was started in order to attempted to reverse the trend. There have been a handful of areas where attention and energies have been focused. Abortion rights, gay rights, and religious rights tend to be the top ones.

Like Jennifer said, sex is always a big focus of everything in the US, so here, at least, it's going to get a lot of attention. What I've heard during my years attending church and listening to para-church groups is that homosexual normalization causes the country to slide further away from God and righteousness. Some fear that God will punish a nation that, by their standards, embrace homosexual relationships. I've talked about it with my mother and she pretty firmly believes that, since homosexuals practice one form of sexual perversion, that they are more likely to sexually molest children.

Personally, I have a lot of mixed feelings about the topic. I consider myself a Christian and consider the Bible the inspired word of God. However, it seems unfair to me that something that appears to be largely out of a person's control is considered sin. It's very hard to be celibate one's whole life and it's also very lonely.

So the way I have come to see things is that everyone sins but the Bible is very clear that God loves sinners and forgives us. I see no reason to single people that struggle with that particular inclination out for abuse. I've been in church long enough to know there is plenty of sin among the 'righteous' that nobody needs to be casting stones.

Politically, I don't consider it the business of the state to enforce the will of any almost purely religious belief and cannot think of a good reason that the laws should not change to better reflect the culture, including rights for homosexual and heterosexual cohabiting couples.
 

sleepy

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I'm not sure. But I presume a homosexual union is a stronger one, more individualized, and therefore more difficult to control. From a power point of view I presume it's easier to control a union of the core family, to use as one see fit, as they are more vulnerable.
 

Kasper

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I've talked about it with my mother and she pretty firmly believes that, since homosexuals practice one form of sexual perversion, that they are more likely to sexually molest children.

Wow, that part jumped out at me the most, I didn't expect to hear that there were still people who linked homosexuality with child molestation.

In the eighties, when it became clear that the US was becoming more and more secular, a political movement was started in order to attempted to reverse the trend. There have been a handful of areas where attention and energies have been focused. Abortion rights, gay rights, and religious rights tend to be the top ones.

Ah, I guess that would explain why studies that contradict with Christian views on abortion and gay rights aren't welcomed, there's more at stake here than abortion and gay rights.

So the way I have come to see things is that everyone sins but the Bible is very clear that God loves sinners and forgives us. I see no reason to single people that struggle with that particular inclination out for abuse. I've been in church long enough to know there is plenty of sin among the 'righteous' that nobody needs to be casting stones.

Do you find it common for people who view homosexuality as a sin share your view on that, the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" idea that is?
 

Owl

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Thank you!

You're welcome.


Does that approach have to view sexuality as a choice?

No, if by "sexuality" you mean what a person finds arousing. I see no reason to deny that a person could both recognize the force of teleological arguments against homosexual behavior yet still be aroused by homosexual thoughts or behavior.

So that one comes down to the roles that God created man and woman to fill, the further you deviate from that the more evil?

(My post was confusing. I hope my edit made it more clear.)


Yes, but it goes down even further. God cannot impose just any role on his creatures. The role a creature ought to fulfill is based on what that creature is--what God made that creature to be. God couldn't create a tree frog and then assign that frog a role in the tundra while simultaneously expecting it to thrive. The idea here, (with respect to homosexuality), is that God created man and woman to reflect/image his nature, and His nature is to be a union of of diversity, (and, with respect to sexual ethics, there isn't the requisite diversity in a homosexual relationship to properly image the nature of God, specifically the diversity between masculine and feminine). In this sense, homosexual couples would be like tree frogs in the tundra: they'd be existentially fucked.*

This is why Christians are so homophobic (imo).


*Stole this from Provoker at INTPc.
 
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