Why do religions hate gays so darn much?

[Peter Deadpan]

Guilt and needing a higher power to tell them to not be themselves, but even moreso to have scapegoats to point their fingers at as a diversion, mostly for themselves.

You're all a little gay, fuck off.

 

[ceecee]

Guilt and needing a higher power to tell them to not be themselves, but even moreso to have scapegoats to point their fingers at as a diversion, mostly for themselves.

You're all a little gay, fuck off.

 

[Lark]

So everyone's straight the rest of the time?

 

[Lark]

Many religions are started by men and are dominated by men; many men find the sexual act between men to be gross. That is why there is opposition to gay people. This is largely a personal aesthetics issue. This is also why centralized authority is a bad idea; eventually, large and powerful institutions get corrupted by jerks.

Or put quite simply, any deviation from the libertarian perspective results in harm to society and the greater the deviation, the greater the damage.

My only problem with that statement is the old private tyranny is no tyranny thing.

Never seen a centralizing force quite like capitalism.

 

[Lark]

I didn't hear anyone even speak about this until I was well into adulthood. I remember laughing so hard like WTF kind of bullshit are you babbling but I found this to be much more wide spread than I imagined, especially from straight men of a more advanced age.

I have never seen, anywhere in the world, in my entire life, anyone trying to make same sex attraction the norm. But trying to tell someone that has this ridiculous belief in their head that is pointless.

Well, you guys are lucky, keep on trucking.

 

[Lark]

It's funny that some straight people complain about gays wanting to 'turn them gay'... Whilst heterosexuals have euhm... practiced 'corrective rape' and still try to 'cure' gay people (with therapy) until this very day.

And Jesus was actually a lizard. Know your biology.

I've never heard or encountered any of this, things are pretty different were you live.

 

[Lark]

I was just gonna say - not all religions. Buddhism and Taoism dont care. Certaing societies that sprung up around those religions might care, but the founders didnt.

Why do you think that is?

 

[Lark]

Because religions reflect the society and attitudes of the people in which it was born, and we're talking about 3,000 years ago here.

Why is that significant? I think its good not to take a decontextualised and ahistorical view but why do you?

 

[Lark]

Many of the older religions/cultures were actually fine with homosexuality, Greek and Roman were especially fond of it. But it was overtaken Christianity and whenever one tribe is taken over by another the first thing they do is vilify old traditions.

The Japanese shogunate and Buddhists were also pretty okay with homosexuality and most likely abandoned it when they were introduced to Western Culture and Christianity.

I can’t speak for the mideast since that isn’t a speciality of mine, but they are not far from Turkey, the home of the Ottoman Empire, which took over the seat ( no pun intended) of the original Roman Empire, so they too would have reason to eliminate the tradition so of the Roman Empire.

So, tl;dr everyone hates the Romans.

How can you be sure of any of that? It sounds like mythology, I prefer myths of the Amazons myself, I am not convinced they are fact though.

The "The world was once gay" idea, like any "gold age" is just an exercise in make believe.

 

[Lark]

I realize this is a very old thread, but oh well. Religions that have deeply established gender roles, and especially when these are gender hierarchies, homosexuality throws off the core of that system. The Christian religions that are considered "conservative" or "traditional" have distinct gender roles, especially in relationship to marriage. They have defined gender hierarchy and there is no way that homosexuality fits into that framework. It breaks down foundational assumptions about basic living in a way that they cannot process or integrate it. I know because I was raised in one of these and understand its philosophy, but also reject it absolutely.

What do you think the future will look like when those traditions are gone and why? Do you think future generations will wish to make a similar innovative break with your tradition and what will that look like?

 

[Lark]

I find the selective interpretation of the Bible to be interesting at times. I'm no biblical scholar but have studied it a bit. If you read the Old Testament, there is some fascinating but crazy stuff in there. People seem to choose to bypass that however. I don't know what Hindus, Buddhists, Jews or Muslims believe...

It might be stating the obvious (to 95% of the educated population) but I don't think sexual orientation is necessarily a choice for most people. Organized religion will catch on eventually - perhaps in 50 - 100 years.

I do agree that its not a choice.

I dont believe this is a view that's held by a lot of the proactive promotion of homosexuality though. I mean when was the last time you heard anyone respond to ambivalence about sexual orientation with "you might be straight?", just saying.

 

[Lark]

Actually a mention of Freud was one thing that jumped out to me in my first skim of the link Peguy posted. It did cause me to pause and wonder if his theories were still being applied. Although to the article's credit it was simply suggesting various aetiological theories and went on to say that Freud's theories had been "repeatedly revised, criticized and corrected by the master's disciples".

The article does accept that there are biological factors, although they consider environmental influences a larger influence.

What if sexual orientation was as much about conditioning as it was biological drives?

I see no harm in that question.

 

[Yuurei]

How can you be sure of any of that? It sounds like mythology, I prefer myths of the Amazons myself, I am not convinced they are fact though.

The "The world was once gay" idea, like any "gold age" is just an exercise in make believe.

I can’t argue that; no really. Arguing with someone who holds absurd or radical beliefs ( be it religious or anti-gay) is utterly pointless no matter how much evidence you give.

So, sure. Romans weren’t Gay, the holocaust never happened and 9/11 was inside job.

Many religions are started by men and are dominated by men; many men find the sexual act between men to be gross. That is why there is opposition to gay people. This is largely a personal aesthetics issue. This is also why centralized authority is a bad idea; eventually, large and powerful institutions get corrupted by jerks.

Or put quite simply, any deviation from the libertarian perspective results in harm to society and the greater the deviation, the greater the damage.

No, that’s wrong. It’s VERY wrong, in fact it could n’t be much further from the truth.

Many of the oldest religions were matriarchal or Polytheistic.

 

[Luminous]

I've never heard or encountered any of this, things are pretty different were you live.

From Wikipedia:

Techniques used in conversion therapy in the United States and Western Europe have included ice-pick lobotomies;[3][4][15][16][17][18] chemical castration with hormonal treatment;[19] aversive treatments, such as "the application of electric shock to the hands and/or genitals"; "nausea-inducing drugs ... administered simultaneously with the presentation of homoerotic stimuli"; and masturbatory reconditioning. More recent clinical techniques used in the United States have been limited to counseling, visualization, social skills training, psychoanalytic therapy, and spiritual interventions such as "prayer and group support and pressure",[20] though there are some reports of aversive treatments through unlicensed practice as late as the early 2000s.

Here's another informative link: Gay Conversion Therapy's Disturbing 19th-Century Origins - HISTORY

And here's an article about it being banned in the UK: 'Gay conversion therapy' to be banned as part of LGBT equality plan - BBC News

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

How can you be sure of any of that? It sounds like mythology, I prefer myths of the Amazons myself, I am not convinced they are fact though.

The "The world was once gay" idea, like any "gold age" is just an exercise in make believe.

Maybe with the exception of a few niche conspiracy theory type stories, I’ve not once heard anyone suggest the world was once gay. I don’t think that’s an idea most historians would take seriously. Sounds as ridiculous as many religious creation stories tbh

Nor have I seen actual evidence of some gay coalition trying to push and encourage their lifestyle upon others, though I have seen a lot of conservative types speak of gays pushing their agendas and lifestyle. I’ve never seen or heard of gay groups using questionable and allegedly abusive practices in efforts to convert straight people, though the reverse has been well documented in the US. I don’t know man, maybe it’s different in Ireland. I did grow up in a pretty socially conservative region of the USA, forgive my bias here.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I mean, how would forced conversion to gayness even work? Do they strap you down and force you to listen to Barbra Streisand records whilst simultaneously making you watch old Liberace TV specials?

Joking aside, at most, any supposed encouragement to enter a gay lifestyle...at the most I would guess we might see more straight or questioning people experimenting in their teens and twenties before deciding that’s not the team they play for. The ones who do decide to live a gay lifestyle are probably already gay to begin with and were probably either closeted or in denial prior to being “brainwashed”. Not sure what the harm is if they realize their true orientation because of a little “recruitment” or however social conservatives choose to phrase it.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Just gonna leave this here. Jump to 0:50

 

[Coriolis]

What do you think the future will look like when those traditions are gone and why? Do you think future generations will wish to make a similar innovative break with your tradition and what will that look like?

When traditions based on factors we cannot control like gender, race, and sexual orientation are gone, then people will have greater leeway to develop their individual talents and abilities, and pursue their goals and dreams. Rather than abandoning these traditions entirely, I hope we can reshape them to remove those factors while retaining the underlying sense of responsibility. For instance, that committed partners be honest and faithful, without requiring that they be "one man and one woman", or that parents be caring and responsible toward children, regardless of gender or exact family arrangement.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

What do you think the future will look like when those traditions are gone and why? Do you think future generations will wish to make a similar innovative break with your tradition and what will that look like?

I'm not conscious of any tradition I'm interested in instilling. I mostly care about separating public from private, to maintain a clear boundary of personal space. I feel that what exists inside that personal boundary of the self is the right to choose who we are as a person, what profession to seek, who to love as friends and romantic partner, our sense of gender and identity in every way, how we like to make a sandwich, what animals we choose as pets, what kinds of stuff we buy with our money, etc.

I don't think there should be global social controls on that personal space, and if that's not possible, those externally imposed controls should be minimized. My sense of sexual orientation rights is to let the chips fall where they may. If the whole world became heterosexual, homosexual, asexual, whatever, it isn't about my own personal preferences (except inside my personal space then it is 100% my preference), but about allowing people to their personal space to live in a way that feels authentic to them, even if their choices don't make sense to me, even if their choices don't make sense to you.

 

[Yuurei]

Maybe with the exception of a few niche conspiracy theory type stories, I’ve not once heard anyone suggest the world was once gay. I don’t think that’s an idea most historians would take seriously. Sounds as ridiculous as many religious creation stories tbh

Nor have I seen actual evidence of some gay coalition trying to push and encourage their lifestyle upon others, though I have seen a lot of conservative types speak of gays pushing their agendas and lifestyle. I’ve never seen or heard of gay groups using questionable and allegedly abusive practices in efforts to convert straight people, though the reverse has been well documented in the US. I don’t know man, maybe it’s different in Ireland. I did grow up in a pretty socially conservative region of the USA, forgive my bias here.

It’s true. I never said “ The world was gay”

Although, it certainly was less homophobic. Our current culture of ‘no homo’ is a fairly knew and extreme thing.