The value of worship

[Lark]

I've grown up and been immersed in Christianity since I was born. I've heard many schools of thought within the religion and not just one person or one group's teachings.

Would you mind explaining to me where I'm wrong?

P.S. a "God of the Clouds" wasn't meant to be taken literally... Nor was "a lake of fire". I know many of these illustrations are figurative. You get my point though. Maybe?

You speak of damnation, being less of a person as a result of human doubt and punishment, this isnt God or Christianity or Christ's teaching in my experience at all.

The whole of the life, death and teaching of Jesus should in fact resonate with you if what you say is the case and its pretty tailored to you, there's lots of accounts of doubt, not least of which Thomas how had to examine the crucifixion wounds before he would be convinced of the resurrection but plenty of people doubted Jesus' divinity or the existence of an afterlife, repeatedly he is asked about that by the religious authorities who want to portray him as some kind of mad vagrant, again and again the message is that no one can believe even what they've witnessed with their own eyes and in person.

So I very much doubt that Christians or Christ would judge you "less of a person" or deserving of damnation and punishment for those sentiments. In fact I find that simultaneously incredible and all to probable. I'm sorry that's your view.

 

[swordpath]

I'm not sure who does and doesnt go to heaven, I know if he's highly resistant to the idea of heaven he wont go there, same as if there's anywhere you totally detest the idea of going you simply wont go there.

What do you mean by accepts Jesus as his personal lord and saviour? What does that look like? I'm not interested in semantics, sophistry and word play if that's what you're imagining here, Beat or anyone else is free to believe whatever they want and I'm not aiming to change that.

Believing simply what you want to believe negates authenticity... If it were just a matter of trusting because I "want" to believe, I'd be one hell of a Christian right now. I am not capable of doing that.

 

[ajblaise]

Yeah, I can see it, for centuries mankind has been conned by wily bad guys fooling them with religion, come on, you've got to be kiddding me?

They didn't have to be bad guys to create these stories and myths, people desperately wanted the answers they provided, and still do.

 

[Lark]

Believing simply what you want to believe negates authenticity... If it were just a matter of trusting because I "want" to believe, I'd be one hell of a Christian right now. I am not capable of doing that.

The first part of this sentence I understand, its a statement of fact, the second part I dont.

 

[Lark]

They didn't have to be bad guys to create these stories and myths, people desperately wanted the answers they provided, and still do.

So basically, like I said before, people are saps. I'm surprised how you have escaped the net, must feel sort of special to be the one true possessor of truth huh? Imagine how history would have played out if there had been more like you

 

[swordpath]

The first part of this sentence I understand, its a statement of fact, the second part I dont.

What don't you understand about it?

 

[Lark]

What don't you understand about it?

I dont know what you're not capable of and I dont know why you should be capable of it.

Just while I'm talking to you I'd like to say that these discussions are difficult sometimes because people come to them with all their previous experiences, its not always the case that there's a "shared language" or "common concepts" for conducting the discussion.

I'm not trying to be clever or out wit you or anything asking those questions, just not sure what you mean, although I dont agree with you're earlier representation of Christianity, it could well be your own personal lived experience.

I'll check this thread when I get a chance in a day or two, I'm working a shift tommorrow and have to get up early and will be back late but thanks for posting.

 

[ajblaise]

So basically, like I said before, people are saps. I'm surprised how you have escaped the net, must feel sort of special to be the one true possessor of truth huh? Imagine how history would have played out if there had been more like you

Millions have escaped the net! Get with the times.

 

[Cimarron]

I think most of the ritual and worship are about preserving and transmiting knowledge between acolytes and novices or generations, its only a jumping off point for actual spiritual experience and as a result, for those unattuned to or uninclined to spiritual experience or even those OCD about the rituals themselves are not going to experience anything.

.....

The best spiritual practices I've discovered have been in small books which not all churches circulate and are more historical reference now, like The Interior Castle, The Imitation of Christ, Dark Night of The Soul, Practicing The Prescence of God and The Devout Life.

The last two are probably the best, the others are good in terms of considering how to pray but I think relate more to introversion, I'd say I also find the different rules adopted by monastaries, such as the rule of benedict, the rule of Francis, the rule of Augustine, some of which anyone can practice.

You seem to say that worship is valuable because it's a way of sharing the religion. But how is, for example, praying by yourself an act of sharing the religion?

I can't imagine that a god would need our worship to feel validated or secure. I also feel no compulsion to worship, even if I was totally convinced there was a God.

Right, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. In that situation, could you justifiably call yourself "religious"? Or at that point, is it just your own private philosophy, which happens to have a theory constructed like a certain religion?

 

[Mole]

The Sacred and the Profane

The marriage ceremony contains the words, "I thee worship". So worship is as natural within marriage as within synagogue, church, mosque or temple.

However we live in a secular world so we must look for secular forms of worship.

Unfortunately secular forms of worship do look profane, such as the worship of the dollar, the worship of the motor car, the worship of gurus and celebrities, and the worship of nature.

But the impulse to worship won't be denied, even by secularism.

Secularism has emptied our churches and filled our movie houses and kept us watching TV. So we worship movie stars and TV personalities.

We need to worship as we need to eat and procreate.

But 'worship' has become a dirty word - we call a judge, "your Worship" - and so worship has passed from our view and is off our radar screens.

And being invisible worship has become even more powerful. It's inchoate and permeates our quotidian lives.

And permeating our everyday lives, worship has become profane.

But we still remember, at the edge of our minds, that worship was once sacred.

 

[Nicodemus]

I don't worship.

 

[Mole]

Homeless Without Worship

We worship that which our society finds most valuable. If our society finds the dollar most valuable, we worship the dollar. On the other hand, if our society finds social justice most valuable, we worship social justice.

We orientate ourselves within our respective societies so the direction we take and the values we hold are determined by our society.

If our society misdirects us to worship individualism, then unsurprisingly our society becomes invisible to us. And the history of our society becomes invisible and the power relations within our society become invisible too.

Naturally this suits those who benefit from the present power relations, and have a vested interest in keeping them and keeping them invisible.

Of course this violates the first Commandment where we are enjoined to worship the Lord, our God, and are forbidden to worship any false idols.

But let's face reality - it is better to worship false idols than not to worship at all. I only have to turn on the TV to, "Australian Idol", to see who to worship today.

But our first God was the God of the hearth. And without the God of the hearth, we are homeless.

And without a home we are cast aside in the screaming wilderness. No wonder we worship.

No wonder we worship anything rather than nothing.

We tremble helplessly before our God in worship.

 

[swordpath]

I dont know what you're not capable of and I dont know why you should be capable of it.

All I'm saying is that I'm not capable of believing simply because I want to, because I do want to. I'd love to be secure in the idea that there's a force above us all, that is looking out for our welfare and that there's a happy place reserved for me, eternally, after this life on earth. I could scrounge around to find teachings or place myself in the company of wise men who do believe, and that might reinforce the notion of this God, but at my core a legitimate faith would be lacking because I haven't experienced him personally.

It would take some personal act on God's part to convince me. He'd have to reveal himself in a way that computes with me. If he's all-powerful and all loving, why would he withhold? Beats me. People that I talk to who are believers want to tell me I'm doing something wrong. That all the clear signs and revelations are RIGHT THERE, but that I'm not trying or open to accepting it. Yeah, whatever.

All that to say, it's God's move. "The ball is in his court", so to speak. I'm not resistant, just extremely skeptical. I don't think that's a flaw on my part.

Just while I'm talking to you I'd like to say that these discussions are difficult sometimes because people come to them with all their previous experiences, its not always the case that there's a "shared language" or "common concepts" for conducting the discussion.

I'm not trying to be clever or out wit you or anything asking those questions, just not sure what you mean, although I dont agree with you're earlier representation of Christianity, it could well be your own personal lived experience.

It is frustrating talking this subject with others for the reasons you have stated. I agree. I usually try to avoid it. I can't say exactly how I arrived at this mentality that I've got, but I'm here and it's pretty firmly held. What's a boy to do? I'm as lost as the next guy.

 

[Tiltyred]

This reminds me of Mark 9. "Lord, I believe! Help thou mine unbelief!" That's a harder road and one that I've never experienced -- for me it was the opposite, that I believed, and then I realized it made no sense, and trying to be a slave to making sense, stumbled back and forth with it, and still do. But basically, you can walk the walk even if you don't believe. You can pray even if you think no one is listening, and go to church and ask questions even if you think the answers don't make any sense. It's very hard for me to think that you won't have a breakthrough, because that is one very basic promise we're given, Luke 11:9-10
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks, it will be opened.

 

[human101]

lol

 

[swordpath]

lol

What?

 

[Tiltyred]

As to the original question, "For any religion, what is the value of turning belief from passive to active: Engaging in worship, or rituals, etc"

I like Teresa of Avila:
"God has no body now on earth but yours. No hands but yours. No feet but yours.
Yours are the eyes through which the compassion of Christ must look out on the world. Yours are the feet with which He is to go about doing good. Yours are the hands with which He is to bless his people."
--St. Teresa of Avila (1515-1582)

 

[Tallulah]

All I'm saying is that I'm not capable of believing simply because I want to, because I do want to. I'd love to be secure in the idea that there's a force above us all, that is looking out for our welfare and that there's a happy place reserved for me, eternally, after this life on earth. I could scrounge around to find teachings or place myself in the company of wise men who do believe, and that might reinforce the notion of this God, but at my core a legitimate faith would be lacking because I haven't experienced him personally.

It would take some personal act on God's part to convince me. He'd have to reveal himself in a way that computes with me. If he's all-powerful and all loving, why would he withhold? Beats me. People that I talk to who are believers want to tell me I'm doing something wrong. That all the clear signs and revelations are RIGHT THERE, but that I'm not trying or open to accepting it. Yeah, whatever.

All that to say, it's God's move. "The ball is in his court", so to speak. I'm not resistant, just extremely skeptical. I don't think that's a flaw on my part.


It is frustrating talking this subject with others for the reasons you have stated. I agree. I usually try to avoid it. I can't say exactly how I arrived at this mentality that I've got, but I'm here and it's pretty firmly held. What's a boy to do? I'm as lost as the next guy.

My personal belief is that if you keep yourself open, you will find that reassurance at the right time. I don't think God withholds, but I also think some circumstances and timeframes are more "right" than others. The perfect situation presents itself to make the greatest impact. I also think it never hurts to ask through prayer for the very thing you want. The "seeking" part of the equation. Sometimes I think we have to ask for it. I don't think you're doing anything wrong.

 

[gromit]

The experiences that bring me closer to members of a church or any other organziation are activities such as community action projects. I volunteered my time to renovate an abandoned house in the middle of town a few years ago. I told the guys I have very little experience doing construction work of any kind, but I'm a big strong S.O.B. and I'll move anything around where its needed, pick up the trash generated by the various projects going on at the same time, and try to learn whatever I could to be useful. They were like "Cool! We have a work horse!"

Each day I worked on that project I was exhausted, but I knew all of our efforts would ultimately lead to turning an abandoned home in the middle of town into a nice house that a family would be able to buy under special financing/low interest rate terms ala the non-profit's deal with the city in using volunteer time to renovate the abandoned property. That felt really good to me, and made me feel alot closer to God than sitting in a church singing songs that I've never liked, and throwing a few bucks in the basket when it makes its way down my aisle of pews...

Hm... I totally think that counts, actually. 'Counts'.

I want to go to gromit and Halla's church.

Me too.

-- but could you even call that [religion], without the active aspects of belief?

So let's discuss: What is the value in that? Why not leave a "religion" as a group of theories in one's mind?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking... I think you could leave something as theories in your mind but I don't know that a set of theories would be a religion. Perhaps a philosophy. But unless you implement those theories somehow, use them to drive your decisions and actions, then what is the point, to make yourself feel good or something? (Not you specifically, generic 'you')

I've been thinking about this a little more, particularly as I've been sort of drifting in terms of formal religion lately. Here is a quote from this essay called Department of the Interior by Linda Hogan.

The purpose of ceremony is to restore the individual to their place within all the rest...The real ceremony begins where the formal one ends, when we take up a new way, our minds and hearts filled with the vision of earth that holds us within it, in compassionate relationship to and with our world. We speak. We sing. We swallow water and breathe smoke. By the end of the ceremony, it is as if skin contains land and birds. The places within us have become filled...We who easily grow apart from the world are returned to the great store of life all around us and there is the deepest sense of being at home here in this intimate kinship.

That passage is describing a native American sweat lodge ceremony (I believe of the Lakota tradition). I had the chance to participate in one a few months ago, a friend invited me to attend. It's sort of like a sauna that's made by pouring water over really hot rocks. It's like nothing I've ever experienced. The person in charge lead us through different meditations, and chants and songs, and you really do feel like you are dissolving into this interconnectedness, a greater awareness (while you're doing it), and then afterward, you feel relaxed but somehow also alert, renewed, cleansed, able to refocus your attention. So I have felt, in my own way, what the author describes with that particular ceremony, in a very tangible, but spiritual/psychological way. So beautiful.

I have also felt similarly with other ceremonies from other traditions, too, though never as tangibly. I like the beginning of the second sentence 'The real ceremony begins where the formal one ends, when we take up a new way...' The ceremony itself tends to be more physical, but at the same time all of the elements are deeply symbolic. You bring that symbolism from abstraction to reality by changing the your attitude, your approach to things, by taking up the new way.

 

[Lark]

Millions have escaped the net! Get with the times.

If they had anything to recommend them I would, millions you say? I had no idea so many had become shut off.