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The value of worship

Cimarron

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For any religion, what is the value of turning belief from passive to active: Engaging in worship, or rituals, etc?

Can a religion really be observed without worship or rituals or even prayers, no active participation (whether alone or social), but simply through passive belief?
 

gromit

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Okay, so, worship, homage to a greater being (accompanied with an attitude of reverence) in a formal or informal ceremony...

A sense of awe and wonder, which I associate with worship and hiking and the ocean, is somehow related to personal development... I think it goes back to the idea that there is something bigger than you, whether it is humanity, the universe, 'nature', or God, or whatever you may call it. It gives you a sense of connectedness and healthy humility. When you are worshiping, you're acknowledging the existence of that larger context.

Another important aspect of worship in organized religion is that it is often communal, so it gives you a sense of being more physically connected with the group.

The act of doing helps to make things REAL, to reinforce, to make less theoretical.

Simply observing the religion you would miss out on the above. However, there would still be a lot you could learn though, thinking about the ideas, integrating them into your own belief system etc. but I really do feel strongly that the act of DOING can change you somehow.
 

Halla74

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Okay, so, worship, homage to a greater being (accompanied with an attitude of reverence) in a formal or informal ceremony...

Good definition, I likes it! :D

A sense of awe and wonder, which I associate with worship and hiking and the ocean, is somehow related to personal development...

I too have a similar sense of awe and wonder for nature. To me, nature is a central component of man's connectivity with God. So many people do not seem to understand that MAN is a tiny part of the MASSIVE LIVING ECOSYSTEM of the planet EARTH. All life is dependent on the totality of the ecosystem of the planet on which it lives. God created the heavens and the Earth, and man might be his favorite life form of all he created, but it seems that alot of people forget their ties to "Mother Nature", whom God appointed as the caretaker of the planet man lives on. To foresake nature is to deny the totality of the creation of all life. A living ecosystem cannot exclusively be skyscrapers, and subways, and highways, and airports, these things are very useful creations of man, but are not alive at all, and do not serve to bring us closer to our maker...

I think it goes back to the idea that there is something bigger than you, whether it is humanity, the universe, 'nature', or God, or whatever you may call it. It gives you a sense of connectedness and healthy humility. When you are worshiping, you're acknowledging the existence of that larger context.

I really like how you worded the above and conceptualized it. Beautiful!

Another important aspect of worship in organized religion is that it is often communal, so it gives you a sense of being more physically connected with the group.

Apparently this is true for many. It never has been for me. I have never been one to feel closer to anyone just because they were next to me in church and we were listening to the same service and singing the same songs at the same time.

The experiences that bring me closer to members of a church or any other organziation are activities such as community action projects. I volunteered my time to renovate an abandoned house in the middle of town a few years ago. I told the guys I have very little experience doing construction work of any kind, but I'm a big strong S.O.B. and I'll move anything around where its needed, pick up the trash generated by the various projects going on at the same time, and try to learn whatever I could to be useful. They were like "Cool! We have a work horse!" :laugh:

Each day I worked on that project I was exhausted, but I knew all of our efforts would ultimately lead to turning an abandoned home in the middle of town into a nice house that a family would be able to buy under special financing/low interest rate terms ala the non-profit's deal with the city in using volunteer time to renovate the abandoned property. That felt really good to me, and made me feel alot closer to God than sitting in a church singing songs that I've never liked, and throwing a few bucks in the basket when it makes its way down my aisle of pews...

I'm an ESTP though, and we are notorious for being ranked the lowest of all MBTI types with regard to "spiritual awareness" or whatever it is referred to as. I'm a man of action, yet I believe in God, and am more comfortable connecting with him by trying to do his work here on Earth than participate in ritualistic, organized religious services. But I'm not at all syaing that my way is better than anyone elses, it's just what works for me. :yes:

The act of doing helps to make things REAL, to reinforce, to make less theoretical.

BINGO!!! :yay: :woot: :moonwalk:

Simply observing the religion you would miss out on the above. However, there would still be a lot you could learn though, thinking about the ideas, integrating them into your own belief system etc. but I really do feel strongly that the act of DOING can change you somehow.

Totally. We must all find a way of "doing" that makes sense to us personally. That is the ticket, that is the key. If you believe in God (or higher power of any kind), find a way to connect in a manner that is complimentary to your understanding, and you will no doubt experience a synergistic effect that multiplies the strength of your convictions far beyond what either form can do on their own.
 

cafe

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I want to go to gromit and Halla's church.
 

Mole

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For any religion, what is the value of turning belief from passive to active: Engaging in worship, or rituals, etc?

Can a religion really be observed without worship or rituals or even prayers, no active participation (whether alone or social), but simply through passive belief?

Worship is one of the most powerful things we can do.

Homo sapiens has been worshipping for 200,000 years.

For 200,000 years we have been creating ourselves through worship.

Other animals are guided by instinct and have no need to create themselves. We are the only animal that has the possibility of creating ourselves. And we do - through worship.

Worship is extraordinary. We open the depths of ourselves to the Truth with a capital T. And we open ourselves to the Presence with a capital P.

And the Presence and the Truth become our present truth.
 

Halla74

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Worship is one of the most powerful things we can do.

Homo sapiens has been worshipping for 200,000 years.

For 200,000 years we have been creating ourselves through worship.

Other animals are guided by instinct and have no need to create themselves. We are the only animal that has the possibility of creating ourselves. And we do - through worship.

Worship is extraordinary. We open the depths of ourselves to the Truth with a capital T. And we open ourselves to the Presence with a capital P.

And the Presence and the Truth become our present truth.

A most excellent post, Victor! :nice:
 

Cimarron

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Simply observing the religion you would miss out on the above. However, there would still be a lot you could learn though, thinking about the ideas, integrating them into your own belief system etc.
-- but could you even call that [religion], without the active aspects of belief?

The act of doing helps to make things REAL, to reinforce, to make less theoretical.
So let's discuss: What is the value in that? Why not leave a "religion" as a group of theories in one's mind?
 
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Lark

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I think most of the ritual and worship are about preserving and transmiting knowledge between acolytes and novices or generations, its only a jumping off point for actual spiritual experience and as a result, for those unattuned to or uninclined to spiritual experience or even those OCD about the rituals themselves are not going to experience anything.

The vast majority of sermons, preaching and teaching I've encountered are almost entirely normative, sometimes there's a little history and show biz but more often than not, unfortunately, there's a lot of the personality and personal quirks, more often hang ups and issues, being projected. The whole kiss up and piss down or controller drives get channelled by religious as easily as other fields.

The best spiritual practices I've discovered have been in small books which not all churches circulate and are more historical reference now, like The Interior Castle, The Imitation of Christ, Dark Night of The Soul, Practicing The Prescence of God and The Devout Life.

The last two are probably the best, the others are good in terms of considering how to pray but I think relate more to introversion, I'd say I also find the different rules adopted by monastaries, such as the rule of benedict, the rule of Francis, the rule of Augustine, some of which anyone can practice.
 

swordpath

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I can't imagine that a god would need our worship to feel validated or secure. I also feel no compulsion to worship, even if I was totally convinced there was a God.


In this very moment, agony exists
Unbeknownst to an unforgiving force.
Some pray, some beg, without consolation.
The pure lie beneath us while the scum walk the earth
Why can't we heal them?
Why can't we see them?
Can we keep hoping, no one knows for sure
Blamelessly renouncing, guilt has no bearing
I must believe that there is a better way.
Beholder of justice
Who have you abandoned?
Beholder of justice
Why have you forgotten us?

Why, why have you forgotten us?
Why, why must the innocent die?

If I could reverse this I swear I would
I would take the pain away, I swear to you.
Broken souls and misery it seems we're too far gone
Now we can only ask and wish for our complete redemption

Beholder of justice
Who have you abandoned?
Beholder of justice
Why have you forgotten us?

Why, does such innocence suffer
While the evil prospers?
Why, beholder of justice?
Why, have you forgotten us?

How can I stand by your judgment?
 

Lark

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I can't imagine that a god would need our worship to feel validated or secure. I also feel no compulsion to worship, even if I was totally convinced there was a God.

Do you/would you worship anything else?
 

swordpath

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Do you/would you worship anything else?
If there was something/someone that provides unconditional support and love to an honest person, sure.

According to Christianity, I'm damned because I don't know any better. I fail to have faith in something I can't see or feel, and apparently I'm less of a person for it and deserving of punishment.

If that's true, then hell awaits me, and frankly I'd rather be there. I'd prefer to be on my own in a lake of fire, than kickin' it with a two-faced tyrant in the clouds.
 

ajblaise

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For any religion, what is the value of turning belief from passive to active: Engaging in worship, or rituals, etc?

Social control, basically.

Individuals left to their own devices rarely feel the need to worship the Sun, dictators, God(s), ancestors etc. until an outside influence reinforces it. It's not always a terrible thing though.
 

Lark

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If there was something/someone that provides unconditional support and love to an honest person, sure.

According to Christianity, I'm damned because I don't know any better. I fail to have faith in something I can't see or feel, and apparently I'm less of a person for it and deserving of punishment.

If that's true, then hell awaits me, and frankly I'd rather be there. I'd prefer to be on my own in a lake of fire, than kickin' it with a two-faced tyrant in the clouds.

Yes. You have made a number of mistakes in this post which leads me to believe you know nothing about Christianity or the Christians you have spoken to know nothing about it either.
 

ajblaise

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Yes. You have made a number of mistakes in this post which leads me to believe you know nothing about Christianity or the Christians you have spoken to know nothing about it either.

If Beat never accepts Jesus as his personal lord and savior, how will he get into Heaven?
 

Lark

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Social control, basically.

Individuals left to their own devices rarely feel the need to worship the Sun, dictators, God(s), ancestors etc. until an outside influence reinforces it. It's not always a terrible thing though.

Yeah, I can see it, for centuries mankind has been conned by wily bad guys fooling them with religion, come on, you've got to be kiddding me?

The logic of these arguments is entirely phony, do you really believe that everyone is a sap? When did you start seeing the matrix?

I asked the question about about worshipping anything for a good reason, if you can imagine worshipping someone you've fallen in love with then you should be able to imagine worshipping God in the same way, because that is what both man and God desire is a relationship. Nice blinkers you fashioned yourself there.

Myths about sky tyrant are BS.
 

swordpath

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Yes. You have made a number of mistakes in this post which leads me to believe you know nothing about Christianity or the Christians you have spoken to know nothing about it either.

I've grown up and been immersed in Christianity since I was born. I've heard many schools of thought within the religion and not just one person or one group's teachings.

Would you mind explaining to me where I'm wrong?

P.S. a "God of the Clouds" wasn't meant to be taken literally... Nor was "a lake of fire". I know many of these illustrations are figurative. You get my point though. Maybe?
 

Lark

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If Beat never accepts Jesus as his personal lord and savior, how will he get into Heaven?

I'm not sure who does and doesnt go to heaven, I know if he's highly resistant to the idea of heaven he wont go there, same as if there's anywhere you totally detest the idea of going you simply wont go there.

What do you mean by accepts Jesus as his personal lord and saviour? What does that look like? I'm not interested in semantics, sophistry and word play if that's what you're imagining here, Beat or anyone else is free to believe whatever they want and I'm not aiming to change that.
 
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