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Is God Evil?

Take Five

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As you do your religion? Pot, meet kettle.

It's hard to discuss IF God is evil when your response will reflexively be "God can't be evil".

Even harder to do if your response will reflexively be "God can't exist." Which is what you apparently aren't understanding. There are plenty of other "does God exist" threads, so take your angst out there.
 

Lark

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Or don't believe in fairy tales.

I swear, and theists call atheists smug.

You dont need to believe in fairy tales to believe in God, I can see the truth in some fairy tales but I dont believe in all of them.

Smug? Oh, oh right, I see :laugh: you had like a whole other point going on there, sorry, oh well, I stand by what I said, I'll try and find the author but there was a good fantasy writer who wrote novels about both Christian-ish themes and faerie (I think that's spelt correctly).

Thankfully there's enough Iron to keep the blighters at bay these days and they're not sneaking out to make off with your kids and leave changlings every time you leave the little 'uns out on the porch to enough the mild weather in their crib or hamper or what have you.

How do you spell tall and conceited in three letters? E-l-f, yeah, I said it. :laugh:
 

ragashree

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You dont need to believe in fairy tales to believe in God, I can see the truth in some fairy tales but I dont believe in all of them.
I wouldn't bother responding to provocative caricatures if I were you ;) The scarecrow needs some new brains! :yes:

Smug? Oh, oh right, I see :laugh: you had like a whole other point going on there, sorry, oh well, I stand by what I said, I'll try and find the author but there was a good fantasy writer who wrote novels about both Christian-ish themes and faerie (I think that's spelt correctly).
C.S. Lewis? If so, just about everything he wrote was either indirect Christian apologism (by way of allegory) - the "Narnia" stories, and some of his Sci-fi; or direct apologism - such as "The Screwtape letters". He must have been doing something right, whether as an apologist who presented his ideas creatively, or a creative writer who was motivated by apologism, since his work has been so wildly popular.
 

onemoretime

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You dont need to believe in fairy tales to believe in God, I can see the truth in some fairy tales but I dont believe in all of them.

Smug? Oh, oh right, I see :laugh: you had like a whole other point going on there, sorry, oh well, I stand by what I said, I'll try and find the author but there was a good fantasy writer who wrote novels about both Christian-ish themes and faerie (I think that's spelt correctly).

Thankfully there's enough Iron to keep the blighters at bay these days and they're not sneaking out to make off with your kids and leave changlings every time you leave the little 'uns out on the porch to enough the mild weather in their crib or hamper or what have you.

How do you spell tall and conceited in three letters? E-l-f, yeah, I said it. :laugh:

Ahh, come on, C.S. Lewis was the last of the utterly-intolerable Anglicans (who don't live in Ulster, that is)! And certainly, from history, you can understand how smug Christians of a different variety can be, especially when they're "in charge" of things.

It's part of the big problem with apologetics, and part of the reason I enjoy discussing this subject with you. With apologetics, the assumption is that the religion is in a position of weakness, and the moral thing to do is defend it. Your great perspective arises from that you actually do live in a part of the world where being religious is nowhere near a given. However, for an American to act in the role of "fidei defensor" comes off the wrong way, because in this country, faith is a given, and not something that needs defending (see "Atheists are the most distrusted minority" thread). Recent studies have put the percentage of the population claiming a faith who have none at 15-20%.
 

Totenkindly

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C.S. Lewis? If so, just about everything he wrote was either indirect Christian apologism (by way of allegory) - the "Narnia" stories, and some of his Sci-fi; or direct apologism - such as "The Screwtape letters". He must have been doing something right, whether as an apologist who presented his ideas creatively, or a creative writer who was motivated by apologism, since his work has been so wildly popular.

Both Lewis and Tolkien were committed Christians... and Tolkien had a hand in converting Lewis.

I'm actually not sure why Lewis' work is so popular with the evangelicals, since there are theological ideas in his works don't mesh with their doctrines, if you actually pay attention to what he's saying and where he's coming from. It's kind of funny.

It's part of the big problem with apologetics, and part of the reason I enjoy discussing this subject with you. With apologetics, the assumption is that the religion is in a position of weakness, and the moral thing to do is defend it. Your great perspective arises from that you actually do live in a part of the world where being religious is nowhere near a given. However, for an American to act in the role of "fidei defensor" comes off the wrong way, because in this country, faith is a given, and not something that needs defending (see "Atheists are the most distrusted minority" thread). Recent studies have put the percentage of the population claiming a faith who have none at 15-20%.


Pretty much it's the norm here. If you say you don't believe there is a God (and by that, meaning the Christian God), you're looked at as if you have two heads. Even people that don't go to church talk about God as if he was a given.

And yet inside the community, it's very much a worldview of "Christianity is under attack and we need to defend it!" mindset. That's how I was raised, and I remember feeling that way until my mid-20's or so when I started to get out into the external world from that environment and realize the perceptions were different outside.

To get back to one of the main conflicts in the thread: Since the OP does specifically focus on Biblical/Christian God criticism, I'd say the topic is really, can the God described in the basic Christian Bible be legitimately viewed as evil based on the Biblical picture and on what basis? I don't think we need all the sparring (from BOTH ends) on whether or not God exists, we can save all of our obnxiousness for the thread topic. ;)
 

Lark

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George McDonald, Lilith and Phantastes are good places to begin I'd say, Lilith has Christian iconography, well, in so far as it features Adam and Eve I think.

Jennifer you're spot on the money about CS Lewis, it was Tolkein who succeeded in winning him over from pretty militant atheism to faith and possibly could have won him over to RCC but for the fact that Lewis was an ulster protestant and couldnt be reconciled to it as a result of his up bringing.

There's plenty in both his fiction and non-fiction which would displease an evangelist, the whole idea of a mere christianity surely is an insult to anyone who believes in schismatic history.

Besides that, well, Lewis thought that purgatory was plausible and that a passage in the bible to do with drinking poison and remaining unharmed meant that obeservant RCs who didnt join the protestant ascendency could still be saved.

Tolkein absolutely hated Narnia and it was part of their eventual fall out, probably more so than religion, but considering that Tolkein invented a language, heraldry, dynastic history etc. to support his stories its not surprising, plus Tolkein's tales had more to do with serious research in Norse myth than obvious Christianity.

Poul Anderson is the only one to have written in the same train as Tolkein and his books are possibly better, Broken Sword and Three Hearts, Three Lions are absolutely masterpieces, I loved Mid Summer Tempest too but some people think it was a lousy sequel to the others.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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And yet inside the community, it's very much a worldview of "Christianity is under attack and we need to defend it!" mindset. That's how I was raised, and I remember feeling that way until my mid-20's or so when I started to get out into the external world from that environment and realize the perceptions were different outside.

The idea that "Christianity is under attack" is not completely without merit, because there are real reasons why Christians might feel this way (which I'll explain below). In reality a Christian might see something that doesn't fit with their worldview and then have a vague feeling that something isn't right. Looking for an explanation for their feelings the only option they're given is the Fox News narrative that there is a vast left-wing conspiracy perpetrated by the "liberal media". :rolli:

In reality there are two small but influencial groups that are out of touch with the majority of America: the entertainment industry and academia. These groups often say/show things that are out of line with mainstream values, but it's really because they are out of touch instead of some vast conspiracy.

It should be pretty clear that New York/Hollywood entertainment is out of touch. Here's an innocuous example: before the show "The Office" there was almost no comedy about an office environment even though this is a very common environment for Americans to work in. The movie "Office Space" was pretty much it, and the show "The Office" really only got started because it was a remake of a British show. The Entertainment Industry as a whole really has no clue what the life of the average American is like.

Then there is academia, specifically college professors. They have always been far removed from the norm of society, but previously it wasn't as much of an issue. However during the past couple of decades college enrollment has really picked up. So now the majority of Americans are being educated by a group that really has little involvement with mainstream life (and mostly has no desire to be involved with mainstream life). And it should go without saying that a university is generally a highly secular environment where religion is tolerated at best.

So when people see both the TV and academia telling them things that don't gel with their values they know something is out of whack, but often they can't quite put their finger on it. Academia can't provide the solution, because they are part of the problem. The only explanation people have for this phenomena is Fox News. So they end up believing in the vast liberal conspiracy instead.
 

Lark

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To be honest I think that athiesm in academia is popular because its an intellectual attack on both the, perceived, establishment and, perceived, common people, its got appeal to left or right wing temperament, plus you're never liable to piss off your sponsors or have the trouble that a genuine dissident intellectual would have.
 

Totenkindly

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Actually, I feel like the complaints revolve around lifestyle changes in the general culture at large... something that "mainstream America" experiences every day.

Most Americans don't involve themselves with academia nor care what academia has to say on a day-to-day basis. And the entertainment industry sells whatever will bring in the most money, so it is part of a cyclical [i.e., it both drives AND is driven by] reflection of the mindset of the bulk of money-spending Americans.

When Christians bitch about Christianity being under attack, the bulk of it comes from feeling like one is in the middle of a moral avalanche as the cultural values in the world you interact with on a daily basis are shifting away from your own values... leaving you floundering and feeling unsupported and isolated as a minority.

They then look for someone to blame. The entertainment industry is to blame, academia is to blame, and as you state, Fox news is to blame (for pushing the "liberal media conspiracy" button). But they are all scapegoats. In reality, if the culture still gelled with their Christian values, no one would be looking at any of these things.

The problem is that culture is becoming something that many Christians don't want it to be, and they don't have any grounds to stand on if all faiths are equally unprovable. Considering that Christianity has long tried a modernist approach (until the 70-80's, when postmodern and pentecostal/emotive style faiths started to come more into vogue), losing the very certainty that made faith unnecessary is a pretty scary thing unless you truly have faith on something abstract (God) rather than on something tangible (like the Bible).

People don't like having their "proof" taken away; hence, the culture should be viewed as hostile, and since academia and higher thinking is partly responsible for their "proof" being taken away, let's brand them as an enemy as well. And entertainment is just a bad influence and is corrupting people to believe immoral things are okay... although we keep spending our money on it.

IOW, the world without Christianity being in charge is an uncertain, unpalatable, and very scary place to exist. I find those accusations dominated mostly by fear.
 

Lark

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When Christians bitch about Christianity being under attack, the bulk of it comes from feeling like one is in the middle of a moral avalanche as the cultural values in the world you interact with on a daily basis are shifting away from your own values... leaving you floundering and feeling unsupported and isolated as a minority.

To be honest, this goes for ideologies as much as religion, perhaps more so, being under attack means you matter and indifference is the ultimate insult.

Its perhaps a terrible reflection of human nature but the ideologies which have endured and got even more popular are those which can conjur up the biggest, baddest enemies. There's a total ego trip to it, like how important are we, not only does the very future hinge on us but everyone is out to get us.

One of the things which panicked Ulster Unionists in Northern Ireland was when the IRA gave up its armed struggle, did everything that the international arms decommissioning bodies and inspectors asked of them etc. Really hard to play cowboys and indians if no ones going to be indians.

They then look for someone to blame. The entertainment industry is to blame, academia is to blame, and as you state, Fox news is to blame (for pushing the "liberal media conspiracy" button). But they are all scapegoats. In reality, if the culture still gelled with their Christian values, no one would be looking at any of these things.

Well I think there has been objective liberalisation of the media, changes have taken place, the difference is that instead of seeing it as a matter of fact, misadventure maybe but a matter of fact all the same if you're looking for hand of your enemy in things you'll find it.

So what was a matter of fact becomes something threatening, the threat is at once frightening and exciting, I'd say more the later than the former because its the later that motivates, the former, if its truly felt will just provoke despair.

Thing about this research though is I'll bet that athiests will use it the same as Christians would evidence that Christianity is despise somewhere, some how, they'll revel as well as express shock and horror. It all means the game is afoot.
 

Take Five

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People don't like having their "proof" taken away; hence, the culture should be viewed as hostile, and since academia and higher thinking is partly responsible for their "proof" being taken away, let's brand them as an enemy as well. And entertainment is just a bad influence and is corrupting people to believe immoral things are okay... although we keep spending our money on it.

.

I don't think it's proof, the dismantling of it, or the absence of it that is the cause. It's just that the customs people have been used to are changing, and one thing people despise most is having their customs abolished. And who can blame them, especially at our moment in time? A good deal of the cultural conservatives are the elderly, who in the 20th century went through the Depression and the War, through terrible suffering and hard work and sacrifice, and they understandably don't want that all to be for naught (all the talk about the country going down the tubes). This segment isn't listening to modern atheists' arguments, they don't care about proving their faith, they've already had it for 80 years and won't change. All they see is that the attention grabbing people are changing their customs, and that if more people followed Christian values the country would be better. What they do see is customs being removed and altered--Christian morals are just part of those customs.

But there's not one answer, for some it is that there is too much stuff coming out that puts proof of Christianity in danger. I just don't think they (most people) fear Christianity being atttacked per se, as much as traditional America which happens to have Christian values.
 

Snuggletron

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he is at least sadistic. Doesn't practice what he preaches, is omniscient yet he tests our faith in him behind an impenetrable array of smoke and mirrors, is omnipotent but never shows himself yet we are required to believe in him lest we be punished after we enter an afterlife we don't even know to exist (after the fact god could have just hard-wired us to know his existence or at least manifest every now and then). Yeah he created the universe but now he's just dicking around.
 

Take Five

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he is at least sadistic. Doesn't practice what he preaches, is omniscient yet he tests our faith in him behind an impenetrable array of smoke and mirrors, is omnipotent but never shows himself yet we are required to believe in him lest we be punished after we enter an afterlife we don't even know to exist (after the fact god could have just hard-wired us to know his existence or at least manifest every now and then). Yeah he created the universe but now he's just dicking around.

it's been so long since someone gave an answer to the OP, i didn't realize who you were talking about until the word "omniscient"
 

Totenkindly

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But there's not one answer, for some it is that there is too much stuff coming out that puts proof of Christianity in danger. I just don't think they (most people) fear Christianity being atttacked per se, as much as traditional America which happens to have Christian values.

Yeah, I agree with that.

I think those that daily consciously try to live out a particular brand of Christian faith, however, and especially those who remember a different culture, tend to see them both as the same thing, and so when the culture changes, Christian values are being lost. (re: the whole "prayer in school" debacle).

Because they see them as synonymous, and because they consciously are trying to adhere to a particular faith standards in everything they do, this change ends up being tangibly anchored as a personal attack on their values rather than something else.
 

onemoretime

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Not trying to attack you here, but I would like to dissect some of the points.

The idea that "Christianity is under attack" is not completely without merit, because there are real reasons why Christians might feel this way (which I'll explain below). In reality a Christian might see something that doesn't fit with their worldview and then have a vague feeling that something isn't right. Looking for an explanation for their feelings the only option they're given is the Fox News narrative that there is a vast left-wing conspiracy perpetrated by the "liberal media". :rolli:

This is true. There's also a preoccupation with the way things are "supposed" to be, and it's easy to trigger defense reactions when reality doesn't jive with that vision.

In reality there are two small but influencial groups that are out of touch with the majority of America: the entertainment industry and academia. These groups often say/show things that are out of line with mainstream values, but it's really because they are out of touch instead of some vast conspiracy.

It should be pretty clear that New York/Hollywood entertainment is out of touch. Here's an innocuous example: before the show "The Office" there was almost no comedy about an office environment even though this is a very common environment for Americans to work in. The movie "Office Space" was pretty much it, and the show "The Office" really only got started because it was a remake of a British show. The Entertainment Industry as a whole really has no clue what the life of the average American is like.

You do have a point when mentioning that life in Manhattan or Los Angeles is different from that in Middle America. However, I don't think that media types are as out of touch as you assert. For one, there's the old vaudeville adage: "Does it play well in Peoria?" If you're going to get viewers' money, you're going to have to understand them at some level. There's a reason that for every Hollywood star, there's 20 niche actors scraping by on waiting tables - you only make the money when you have mass mainstream appeal.

The flip side to this is that people aren't drawn to the mundane, but rather the unusual (but not TOO unusual). The Office works because it's an office filled with very warped, unhealthy people, but done in a way that they're still relatable. You can't do that unless you have some serious writing talent behind it (see the suckitude of Season 6). Same with Office Space. However, there have been plenty of workplace comedies beforehand: Just Shoot Me, Spin City, WKRP In Cincinnati, Sports Night, and The Mary Tyler Moore Show are all good examples of the genre. In the end, you've got to go with what sells.

There's one more thing, though - when you hear a commentator go off about "New York media" or "Hollywood values", there's an element of code speech going on there. You can't really get away with saying "the Jews" outright in polite speech.

Then there is academia, specifically college professors. They have always been far removed from the norm of society, but previously it wasn't as much of an issue. However during the past couple of decades college enrollment has really picked up. So now the majority of Americans are being educated by a group that really has little involvement with mainstream life (and mostly has no desire to be involved with mainstream life). And it should go without saying that a university is generally a highly secular environment where religion is tolerated at best.

There are a few things going on here. First, anti-intellectualism has been a core component of American culture since the beginning. There's a couple of reasons for that; one, much of our immigrant population consisted of the outcasts of society, including criminals and political dissidents who would have reason to dislike the establish European elites, including the academics, and two, it runs counter to the peculiar brand of egalitarianism that Americans hold so dear. The modern "American Dream", that you can accomplish anything if you put your mind to it and work hard, doesn't much tolerate what academia represents. No matter what, the average college professor is much, much smarter than the average person, and there is nothing that can change this.

The second is that academics study things that are, of their nature, counterintuitive. Otherwise, they wouldn't be worth studying. So you'll have lots of instances of academic reports that run contrary to "common sense". This, understandably, can cause a lot of unpleasant emotions in people.

The third is that while campuses aren't anti-religious, per se, they are anti-dogmatic. Everything is to be questioned, including the most firmly-held belief. Empiricism and evidence are the watchwords on campus, instead of faith and doctrine. This skeptical environment can seem hostile to very-religious people.

On top of this, academics are usually the first to criticize a government's policies, which can feel disloyal to others.

Finally, there are a lot of professors that are arrogant asses.

So when people see both the TV and academia telling them things that don't gel with their values they know something is out of whack, but often they can't quite put their finger on it. Academia can't provide the solution, because they are part of the problem. The only explanation people have for this phenomena is Fox News. So they end up believing in the vast liberal conspiracy instead.

The thing is that working and middle class Americans have a lot to be upset and confused about, such as the radical shift in our economy that we're currently undergoing. There are many things that are going wrong, and it's hard to make a cohesive narrative about why it's going wrong. There are few things that people respond worse to than uncertainty.

Academia doesn't provide the solution, because that's not their jobs - solutions are the applied side, and not the research side. Academia does do a good job of what it's supposed to do: identify the problem, and the causative factors. Unfortunately, today, many of our problems are of our own causing, or are things that we have no control over, and those messages aren't comforting whatsoever. Humans have a slight tendency to want to shoot the messenger.

Meanwhile, Fox News is in the business of selling advertising to make money. To do this, they must get eyes on screen, and to do that, you must appeal to people's emotions. Fox is absolutely expert at manipulating people's negative emotions, be it xenophobia, nationalistic fervor, scapegoating (liberals, blacks, immigrants, the poor, etc.), dread (missing white girl syndrome), and so on.

The point is to get you mad, because when you're angry, you feel like you're right. It's how the Tea Party's also set up - a group of disparate people who don't necessarily have a cohesive philosophy, except that they're mad about things, and it's not their fault.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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When Christians bitch about Christianity being under attack, the bulk of it comes from feeling like one is in the middle of a moral avalanche as the cultural values in the world you interact with on a daily basis are shifting away from your own values... leaving you floundering and feeling unsupported and isolated as a minority.

That is certainly something you get from the older generation, but I don't hear this from the younger generation. I've talked with a lot of younger to middle-aged conservatives (both religious and non), and I don't hear them complaining about moral decay. People watch Fox News because it is a closer representation of their worldview compared to most of what they see on TV.

The problem is that culture is becoming something that many Christians don't want it to be, and they don't have any grounds to stand on if all faiths are equally unprovable. Considering that Christianity has long tried a modernist approach (until the 70-80's, when postmodern and pentecostal/emotive style faiths started to come more into vogue), losing the very certainty that made faith unnecessary is a pretty scary thing unless you truly have faith on something abstract (God) rather than on something tangible (like the Bible).

I think I was mostly with you until here. Generally only intellectuals are concerned with proof. Most people are much more concerned with practice than proof. If you mean that the older generation doesn't like to see culture changing then that is true (and that has generally always been true for every industrialized culture). But there is something more going on here. Even younger to middle-aged adults feel disconnected from what the TV is portraying. The New York/Hollywood values portrayed in entertainment don't feel genuine to people in other parts of the country.

You do have a point when mentioning that life in Manhattan or Los Angeles is different from that in Middle America. However, I don't think that media types are as out of touch as you assert. For one, there's the old vaudeville adage: "Does it play well in Peoria?" If you're going to get viewers' money, you're going to have to understand them at some level. There's a reason that for every Hollywood star, there's 20 niche actors scraping by on waiting tables - you only make the money when you have mass mainstream appeal.

If you look at ticket sales rather than revenue, then you'll see the movie industry has been in decline for some time now. TV on the other hand has shifted a lot more toward reality TV during the last decade. These shows get ratings because the scripted stuff doesn't feel genuine to a lot of people. (And also they cost the studios a lot less money to make.)
There are a few things going on here. First, anti-intellectualism has been a core component of American culture since the beginning. There's a couple of reasons for that; one, much of our immigrant population consisted of the outcasts of society, including criminals and political dissidents who would have reason to dislike the establish European elites, including the academics, and two, it runs counter to the peculiar brand of egalitarianism that Americans hold so dear. The modern "American Dream", that you can accomplish anything if you put your mind to it and work hard, doesn't much tolerate what academia represents. No matter what, the average college professor is much, much smarter than the average person, and there is nothing that can change this.

The third is that while campuses aren't anti-religious, per se, they are anti-dogmatic. Everything is to be questioned, including the most firmly-held belief. Empiricism and evidence are the watchwords on campus, instead of faith and doctrine. This skeptical environment can seem hostile to very-religious people.

On top of this, academics are usually the first to criticize a government's policies, which can feel disloyal to others.

The average university is as steeped in as much dogma tradition as your average old church (like Catholic, Episcople, Lutheran, etc...). This is easy to see when you attend any college graduation. There is enough pomp and ritual there to rival even your most traditional religious wedding. The only difference is that the dogma and traditions are of an academic nature rather than a religious one.

Finally, there are a lot of professors that are arrogant asses.

Well I've known a lot of professors, and I can't say I really disagree with this point. ;)

The thing is that working and middle class Americans have a lot to be upset and confused about, such as the radical shift in our economy that we're currently undergoing. There are many things that are going wrong, and it's hard to make a cohesive narrative about why it's going wrong. There are few things that people respond worse to than uncertainty.

Academia doesn't provide the solution, because that's not their jobs - solutions are the applied side, and not the research side. Academia does do a good job of what it's supposed to do: identify the problem, and the causative factors. Unfortunately, today, many of our problems are of our own causing, or are things that we have no control over, and those messages aren't comforting whatsoever. Humans have a slight tendency to want to shoot the messenger.

Academics are both researchers and teachers. It is the job of teachers to provide answers about the world around us.
 

onemoretime

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If you look at ticket sales rather than revenue, then you'll see the movie industry has been in decline for some time now. TV on the other hand has shifted a lot more toward reality TV during the last decade. These shows get ratings because the scripted stuff doesn't feel genuine to a lot of people. (And also they cost the studios a lot less money to make.)

I don't agree with this characterization. From what I understand, ticket sales are down because home theaters (big screen, surround sound) directly compete with the moviegoing experience. Reality shows became popular because they're cheap, like you said, rather than more-watched than scripted shows. Since there are so many channels available these days, it's hard to charge advertisers the same rates as back in the Big Three days, when you could guarantee advertisers a double-digit percentage of the country's population watching a popular show.

Reality TV also represents "reality" far less than scripted drama. The only things "ordinary" are the participants.

The average university is as steeped in as much dogma tradition as your average old church (like Catholic, Episcople, Lutheran, etc...). This is easy to see when you attend any college graduation. There is enough pomp and ritual there to rival even your most traditional religious wedding. The only difference is that the dogma and traditions are of an academic nature rather than a religious one.

I think you misunderstood me when I said "dogma". I didn't mean pomp and ceremony as much as rigid adherence to certain principles as capital-T True. On campus, if you say something is True, someone is likely to challenge you on it. That can feel hostile.

Well I've known a lot of professors, and I can't say I really disagree with this point. ;)

Academics are both researchers and teachers. It is the job of teachers to provide answers about the world around us.

I disagree. It is the job of teachers to provide the tools and knowledge those on the applied side need in order to fix the problems around us. It's the difference between an architect and an engineer - an architect provides the vision and determines if things are possible, while an engineer figures out exactly how it's supposed to be done.
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
Yeah, I agree with that.

I think those that daily consciously try to live out a particular brand of Christian faith, however, and especially those who remember a different culture, tend to see them both as the same thing, and so when the culture changes, Christian values are being lost. (re: the whole "prayer in school" debacle).

Because they see them as synonymous, and because they consciously are trying to adhere to a particular faith standards in everything they do, this change ends up being tangibly anchored as a personal attack on their values rather than something else.

I think some sects of Christianity, namely Evangelicals, might view themselves as "being under attack" because of the secularism that permeates most of Western Culture. Some Christians perceive this to somehow be a threat to their religion, despite the fact that our secular institutions create a pluralistic platform for even their religion to flourish. On top of that, you have Christians who think that separate denominations of Christianity aren't "true" Christians because of the way they live their lives, the way they conduct themselves, and the values they have. It's not just religiously neutral institutions that some Christians have a problem with. There's also the fact that most of our media is religiously neutral, that our public schools are religiously neutral, so on and so forth. The small percentage of people who are a legitimate threat to the more Fundamental Christians are militant atheists - who, as far as I can tell, are more of a reactionary group against Fundamentals. You can see this in most of the arguments they formulate.

Also - about the media - most of our entertainment revolves around the absurd. If you take a look at The Office (UK), and compare it to The Office (US), even then you can see that the UK version is much more toned down and grounded in reality, while the US version is more theatrical and dramatic.

We tend to be enchanted by entertainment that, quite frankly, mocks our intelligence and attention span by making flashy flashies on the big screen. Most of the foreign films you find (disregarding Indian) are much lower in budget, therein becoming more focused on the quality of dialog and plot rather than cheap absurdities. If you can meld absurdity with quality, like Batman : The Dark Knight, then I applaud you.
 
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