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Mortality/Immortality

Lark

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Do the worlds religions have anything to offer mankind in terms of consciousness and conscientiousness if the promise of immortality/an afterlife are entirely false? What is the specific promise or nature of immortality which has given it such universal, cross cultural, context and class appeal?

If God, an afterlife etc. are so different from that of this life, ie void of sensation or other things associated with physical/temporal existence, would it constitute an afterlife at all?
 

Words of Ivory

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I'm a believer that nobody has the answers, and none of us will until the day we die. That goes for the atheists as much as it does those who choose to believe in religion - you don't know, so stop acting like you do.

I believe religion has its use, and it gives a lot of hope to those who choose to believe in. I'm not going to condemn someone for believing in it, even if I believe its answers to be false promises. So as it stands, the promise of immortality, and afterlife, whatever you want to call it... I think it's a bit like chasing rainbows.

It's something I'll have the answer to the day I die. There's no point in thinking about it until then.
 

Halla74

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Considering Christians believe "God created man in His own image" I would be somewhat surprised if the Heaven promised to true believers is too different from our environment here on Earth. God created it too, right? Most likely to be consistent with the environment he traverses, maybe? As stated before, it's all up to each believer to decide these things for themselves.

My take on things is a blend of scientific thought and theory, and spirituality. Life comes from life, Pasteur proved this with by dis-proving the theory of spontaneous generation using cubes of meat, jars, cheese cloth, and flies.

That being the case, life here on Earth did not just spontaneously appear, it was "planted" here, and instead of a fly laying a maggot egg, the seed on an entire ecosystem was delivered here, priming it for life that was to one day follow.

As far as immortality, that is left to reproduction, and maybe will be further improved upon by science, but for now I'm making the most of each day I have, and not worrying about details far beyond my control. :newwink:

P.S. The promise of a heavenly afterlife sure was a good way to keep the poor, starving members of society from revolting, murdering the King, and immediately improving their lives via redistribution of the dead royal's hoarded wealth, wasn't it? :thumbdown:
 

Pixelholic

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There are a number of religions that aren't centered around an afterlife but instead around an idea of just being a better person. A lot of eastern religions do this.

The afterlife reward always struck me as a hollow reward for a religion anyway. It's a completely blind choice and doesn't really make any sense.
 

Totenkindly

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There are a number of religions that aren't centered around an afterlife but instead around an idea of just being a better person. A lot of eastern religions do this.

Well, I've been involved with Christians who focus more on the Now as well, in just modeling one's life after Jesus and not worrying about whose idea of the afterlife is specifically correct. SOmetimes, though, they are accused of allowing Eastern thought to infiltrate their faith.

The Now is based on accepting change as it occurs, letting go of the past, and being part of (rather than separate from) the flow of events. In lieu of that, the afterlife is not really relevant until it becomes the Now. It definitely has some merit.

The afterlife reward always struck me as a hollow reward for a religion anyway. It's a completely blind choice and doesn't really make any sense.

That's the main issue -- we have no direct way of knowing what comes after. So it's all purely speculatory, or some argument from inference. Is that enough to take it to the length of legislating against others or warring with others over whose view of the afterlife and ultimate reality is correct?

All we can really know for sure is what is happening in the Now... and even then our information might be sketchy.
 

Coriolis

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Some religions have karmic principles that fall within one's current life; in other words, not simply the idea that if you do bad things in this life, you will have a "lesser" form in your next life. The Wiccans have the Rede: what you send forth comes back to you, often with threefold magnification. These consequences also fall within one's current life. At least some religions thus contain principles by which good actions will reap good consequences (and the converse) before death.
 
R

ReflecTcelfeR

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We plan too far into the future with the afterlife aspect of religions.
 

Amethyst

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Many descriptions of the 'afterlife' sound extremely pedestrian, I'd rather just die sooner or later than spend an eternity of boredom, or just go to Hell...same difference.

Plus, I feel like there's something there that we can't really grasp in terms of what's beyond. I'm not saying I believe in an afterlife, but I believe there's 'something'. And like Halla said, a lot of what humans couldn't understand probably got really twisted in the process of history.
 

angell_m

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As a joke, I would say that I doubt religion has an insurance policy on whether there is an afterlife or not, although it wouldn't surprise over there in America if it excisted (Two in one!)

No, I'm with Words of Ivory on this one. I have religious tattoos, I'm baptised, but I'm not religious. I'm a skeptic, and I believe that religion has shaped humanity to what it is today. I don't think people should be criticized for their beliefs, as long if it does not intrude others individual freedom. Because where my freedom ends, yours begin; Vis-à-vis.
 

soccerjunkie1996

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I'm a believer that nobody has the answers, and none of us will until the day we die. That goes for the atheists as much as it does those who choose to believe in religion - you don't know, so stop acting like you do.
It's the argument of Pascal's wager, for me there are too many inconsistencies and lack of evidence to believe in the existence of a deity. On the off chance that one does exist though, I feel he/she/it would be understanding of someone who thought though things rationally and chose not to believe more so than someone who simply followed blindly without questioning things.


I believe religion has its use, and it gives a lot of hope to those who choose to believe in. I'm not going to condemn someone for believing in it, even if I believe its answers to be false promises. So as it stands, the promise of immortality, and afterlife, whatever you want to call it... I think it's a bit like chasing rainbows.
Agreed, however if you've ever read, for example, god is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens, you'll see there's also a substantial amount of harmful things religion can lead to. That being said, as long as you don't mess with my beliefs (or lack thereof), I won't mess with yours.




Considering Christians believe "God created man in His own image" I would be somewhat surprised if the Heaven promised to true believers is too different from our environment here on Earth. God created it too, right? Most likely to be consistent with the environment he traverses, maybe? As stated before, it's all up to each believer to decide these things for themselves.
Yet another thing that bothers me, if said god is all-powerful, why bother creating a physical earth at all, why not just create an eternal paradise to begin with? Doesn't make sense to me.



That being the case, life here on Earth did not just spontaneously appear, it was "planted" here, and instead of a fly laying a maggot egg, the seed on an entire ecosystem was delivered here, priming it for life that was to one day follow.
If something doesn't come from nothing, where did the creator come from?





In answer to the OP, if an afterlife is false (which I tend to believe it is), then no, I see little benefit in religion. I will concede that for many people having something to believe in can provide hope and be beneficial to some, but in general I think the potential harms of religion outweigh any of those potential benefits.
 
G

Ginkgo

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Do the worlds religions have anything to offer mankind in terms of consciousness and conscientiousness if the promise of immortality/an afterlife are entirely false? What is the specific promise or nature of immortality which has given it such universal, cross cultural, context and class appeal?

If God, an afterlife etc. are so different from that of this life, ie void of sensation or other things associated with physical/temporal existence, would it constitute an afterlife at all?

Well, firstly, our minds can synthesize things that no other creature can. For instance, the image of a cherub is a synthesized cross between a bird and a baby, and you can find numerous depictions like this and even more extensive in the Bible. However, the Bible states that God synthesized these things in his own right. Interesting, don't you think?

I think we lack the perception of not having perception, which fuels our inextricable understanding of an afterlife. How can you accept death when the image of death is nothingness? There's nothing to understand, nothing to anticipate. If there is no afterlife, it's exactly as it was before you were conceived. However, as you are conscious, you must conceive of something. So you might as well conceive of a hopeful afterlife, full of whatever you desire, rather than conceiving of a nihilistic void.

There's a counterpoint, however. If you are to accept an afterlife, will you accept your life as it is? I've noticed a trend in people who aren't progressive about the tangible world because they believe in an afterlife. However, the act of being progressive is really like trying to change what cannot be undone.

Life is a constant struggle, and the determining factor in that struggle is morality. We're all autonomous, so we're all moral; our confusion lies within the fact that we all have different value systems that sometimes contradict each other. For instance, a Muslim might find the act of eating pigs repugnant because of the vile conditions that culture brought pigs up in. However, because most of western society has found ways to sterilize the process of eating pigs, we have a different set of morals that does not condemn eating pigs. Sometimes those morals linger into times when they are outdated, but with the right amount of rationalization they can be reevaluated to improve our lives.

Another trend I'm seeing is that there's been an increase in autonomous anarchy within some people, particularly within Western Youth. I find this ridiculous because it's not really a discovery, it's just making a point out of autonomy and conflating it into an individualistic identity thing. In other words, selfishness.

Yes, there's definitely class appeal to the afterlife, I think. Probably trends in religion according to class as well. That doesn't really disprove the notion of religion, though.
 

proximo

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I'm with Dylan Moran on the afterlife... he said that having a spiritual afterlife makes no sense. It's the spirit that struggles and agonises and is tormented through life, so surely when it's all over, the best thing we could come back as would be a big tentacle with a pair of lips that humps everything and eats yummy food with no self-awareness :laugh:

I think he had a point...
 

ThinkingAboutIt

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Do the worlds religions have anything to offer mankind in terms of consciousness and conscientiousness if the promise of immortality/an afterlife are entirely false? What is the specific promise or nature of immortality which has given it such universal, cross cultural, context and class appeal?

If God, an afterlife etc. are so different from that of this life, ie void of sensation or other things associated with physical/temporal existence, would it constitute an afterlife at all?

What is the specific promise or nature of immortality which has given it such universal, cross cultural, context and class appeal?

I don't think it is a specific promise universally, rather the knowledge that something is missing is embedded in every human beings spirit. Immortality (defined as unending human life) is a myth because it is proven daily that we can not live forever with these bodies. As a Christian, I believe that our bodies decay because of sin, therefore they must eventually die. The spirit is what lives forever. It is not the same though because what lives on does not include our sin nature (at least not for born again Christians going to heaven). It is still the individual, just minus the bad. The environment of the afterlife in Heaven is described in the bible though not to the detail many would like. See Rev 21:10-25 if interested.
 

Lark

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I don't think it is a specific promise universally, rather the knowledge that something is missing is embedded in every human beings spirit. Immortality (defined as unending human life) is a myth because it is proven daily that we can not live forever with these bodies. As a Christian, I believe that our bodies decay because of sin, therefore they must eventually die. The spirit is what lives forever. It is not the same though because what lives on does not include our sin nature (at least not for born again Christians going to heaven). It is still the individual, just minus the bad. The environment of the afterlife in Heaven is described in the bible though not to the detail many would like. See Rev 21:10-25 if interested.

Yeah, I'm totally opposed to your version of Christianity. So much so I cant discuss it with you. Thanks for posting though.
 

Totenkindly

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Yeah, I'm totally opposed to your version of Christianity. So much so I cant discuss it with you. Thanks for posting though.

Lol. Well, at least you were honest.

I don't think it is a specific promise universally, rather the knowledge that something is missing is embedded in every human beings spirit.

Where do you get that knowledge, enough to be able to trust it? And why is acquiring that knowledge important -- why do you need to know it, as opposed to not bothering? What's the appeal?

Immortality (defined as unending human life) is a myth because it is proven daily that we can not live forever with these bodies. As a Christian, I believe that our bodies decay because of sin, therefore they must eventually die. The spirit is what lives forever.

Ironically, this is not a given within mainstream Christian circles. You even quote Revelation later in this post, and it's the book of Revelation where many Christians acquired the idea of a full-body rapture.

The body is not separate from the soul, they believe. God will restore the body from a mortal one to an immortal one. People are holistic according to some flavors of Christianity. The mortal body dies, but God will "fix it" and give an immortal body.

Again, as Lark asks, why do we even care? What is so appealing about immortality that we actually have religions that claim we can be immortal in some way, shape, or form? Why not just accept death as an irrefutable ending, accept we can't see beyond that veil, and then focus on the present life? Why is that so often not acceptable or desirable to people?


It is not the same though because what lives on does not include our sin nature (at least not for born again Christians going to heaven). It is still the individual, just minus the bad. The environment of the afterlife in Heaven is described in the bible though not to the detail many would like. See Rev 21:10-25 if interested.

I would have trouble basing a theology on a few verses in one book that was essentially metaphorical post-apocalyptic literature for its time, meant to give people a vision to cling to in a day when the church was being heavily persecuted and on verge of being wiped out.

But anyway, check out my questions earlier in this post responding to your points... maybe that clarifies better what Lark seemed to be looking for?
 

Stanton Moore

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Do the worlds religions have anything to offer mankind in terms of consciousness and conscientiousness if the promise of immortality/an afterlife are entirely false? What is the specific promise or nature of immortality which has given it such universal, cross cultural, context and class appeal?

If God, an afterlife etc. are so different from that of this life, ie void of sensation or other things associated with physical/temporal existence, would it constitute an afterlife at all?


All of this is a product of consciousness folding in on itself. Omphaloskepsis. We image all of this because we can imagine.
I can't explain the cross-cultural appeal. Perhaps the human race is more unified in brain structure than is assumed, which implies similarity in general function. We use our similar brains to imagine similar themes.
 

Manis

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I don't think the idea of an afterlife is just religions' bribe. It's a response to our human need to model and understand the world around us. The reason life after death is such a common theme is that for the early spiritualists who seeded these religions it was difficult to imagine what it would be like to not exist; much easier to believe that we carry on in some way like we imagine the gods do. Even modern science and philosophy doesn't help and perhaps that's why the idea still endures. What I mean is that the religions don't have a monopoly in spiritual concepts, even within their own followers - their value is mainly in social organisation. If they were to suddenly stop mentioning heaven and hell people would probably just fill in the blanks themselves with whatever they wanted.
 

ThinkingAboutIt

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Lol. Well, at least you were honest.

And, they said thank you!

Where do you get that knowledge, enough to be able to trust it? And why is acquiring that knowledge important -- why do you need to know it, as opposed to not bothering? What's the appeal?

Hummm, good questions, hard to answer though! It is pretty apparent with the number of people constantly trying to find themselves, find purpose, etc. Apparent in how many people pursue love, relationships, and marriage only to find themselves more lonely in the relationship than they were when they were alone, apparent in how many pursue wealth only to find that it is meaningless, and apparent in how many people do not have simple peace in their lives.

Getting the knowledge comes from trying to fill that hole with everything but Christ, and realizing that Christ created the hole for Him alone - you know, all those other things are round pegs, and it's a square hole :) Finally, coming to that realization, having that relationship with Him, and His giving the 'peace that passes all understanding' regardless of what is happening is really it. He just gives the other things, just like He said, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." I found this to be true, but it only happened when I belonged to Him.

Ironically, this is not a given within mainstream Christian circles. You even quote Revelation later in this post, and it's the book of Revelation where many Christians acquired the idea of a full-body rapture.

The body is not separate from the soul, they believe. God will restore the body from a mortal one to an immortal one. People are holistic according to some flavors of Christianity. The mortal body dies, but God will "fix it" and give an immortal body.

Again, as Lark asks, why do we even care? What is so appealing about immortality that we actually have religions that claim we can be immortal in some way, shape, or form? Why not just accept death as an irrefutable ending, accept we can't see beyond that veil, and then focus on the present life? Why is that so often not acceptable or desirable to people?

Eternal life itself is a fundamental belief of Christians. While Christians may discuss immortality, they mean eternal life. Since immortality means other things secularly, I defined it for crossover purposes. Too, not all Christians know that God said He is giving them a new body.

Why do we care? Back to the previous question, that hole needs filling and you can't not search, it's ingrained in every soul.

I would have trouble basing a theology on a few verses in one book that was essentially metaphorical post-apocalyptic literature for its time, meant to give people a vision to cling to in a day when the church was being heavily persecuted and on verge of being wiped out.

It isn't a few verses. It isn't just metaphorical, it is also literal. It also isn't just one book. The bible is a collection of 66 books, written by 40 authors over a period of some 1,500 years —39 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New. It is proven authentic, the prophecies in it almost completely fulfilled. There were more than 2,000 highly specific prophecies contained in it about Christ alone, and He fulfilled them all - including His place of birth.

There are differing opinions on rapture because people get confused between scripture about the rapture and scripture about the second coming - two different events.

But anyway, check out my questions earlier in this post responding to your points... maybe that clarifies better what Lark seemed to be looking for?

I'll take a look!
 
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