Psychology and Religion

[Kiddo]

While getting a head start in studying for one of next semester's psychology courses I came across some very interesting facts about psychology in respect to religion.

Over most of this century, clinical psychologists have held a very negative view of religion. This was in part due to the practices of the church back in the Middle Ages, where it was believed that mental illness was a sign that demons and evil spirits had possessed a victim. The treatments were usually exorcism and torture.

This negative view also had to do with the realization that people suffered great distress and dysfunction from having behaviors and thoughts not condoned by their respected religions despite that it was apparent that they were perfectly healthy and normal thoughts and behaviors for people to have. One example being masturbation, which even today many young men seek therapy to remedy, despite it being a perfectly normal behavior. In addition to that, many religious groups came to fabricate myths about behaviors with the intention of inspiring fear in people. Many of these fabrications still exist today.

Guilt and shame from religious beliefs was often observed in case studies. Freud came to argue that religious beliefs were defense mechanisms that men had developed in order to cope with helplessness. It was forbidden in many clinical practices to even discuss religious beliefs for a good share of the century.

Over the last couple decades, it became apparent that some people benefited greatly from spiritual beliefs. Psychologists began to study specifically what beliefs had the greatest positive impact on patients/clients. Researchers systematically studied links between spiritual beliefs and mental health and came to conclude something that I have found extremely interesting. Interpretation is key. Those people who believed in a loving, forgiving, and caring God showed significantly greater mental health than the general population. Whereas those who believed in an authoritarian, judging, and traditionalistic God did not enjoy any benefits or were actually predisposed to psychological disorder.

Since then, clinical psychologists have treated religion as another form of cultural diversity and have pushed for religious individuals to take on a positive interpretation of God.

I was actually quite happy to read this and even look into some of the clinical studies and see for myself. It confirms what I had already concluded.

My conclusion: Being "God Fearing" is bad for you mental health.

Thoughts?

 

[Totenkindly]

I have not really seen the studies on this, although I am aware of the popular culture slant that positive thinking towards life and a generally positive view towards God and life meaning (including prayer and whatnot) usually results in better health physically and psychologically.

A small point -- when Christianity talks about "fearing God" it usually means fear in the sense of "awe and respect" (as in a "healthy respect for authority") rather than "run screaming from the room Fear in case God is watching." But I think very often it has become literal fear -- God is waiting to punish those who break the laws and send you to hell, if you fail to be the "good child." Even when the threat is not overt, those who ascribe to a doctrine tainted by legalism still view God to some degree as the distant authority whose ultimate goal is to force conformity to the standards of good, and this results in a critical and (to some degree) fearful spirit.

In generally the best human model I can think of is the ideal parent. The best parent encourages, loves, gives, and lifts the child up, strengthening and providing and equipping them for adulthood themselves. The goal is not to terrify or punish but to nurture always with intent for growth and health. Sometimes this means being firm and even disciplining the child, if need be, to keep them on track... but not for any personal desire for revenge or to enjoy inflicting pain. The parent is the ultimate nurturer both in masculine and feminine ways.

When that parental model is mirrored in one's view of God, that seems to me to be the most positive sort of religion -- the parental figure engraved within the person, to be taken wherever they go in life, offering them confidence and value and security.

 

[Kiddo]

Ah, but the question is, is God an authoritarian parental figure or an authoritative parental figure. Both meet the description you gave above, but each has a style that is intrinsically different and produces very different types of children. One produces children that demand power over others in order to maintain control over their lives, whereas the other produces self sufficient children who wish to collaborate with others.

 

[Wandering]

A small point -- when Christianity talks about "fearing God" it usually means fear in the sense of "awe and respect" (as in a "healthy respect for authority") rather than "run screaming from the room Fear in case God is watching."

Agreed. The true meaning of "fearing God" is not about being afraid of God.

In generally the best human model I can think of is the ideal parent. The best parent encourages, loves, gives, and lifts the child up, strengthening and providing and equipping them for adulthood themselves. The goal is not to terrify or punish but to nurture always with intent for growth and health. Sometimes this means being firm and even disciplining the child, if need be, to keep them on track... but not for any personal desire for revenge or to enjoy inflicting pain. The parent is the ultimate nurturer both in masculine and feminine ways.

When that parental model is mirrored in one's view of God, that seems to me to be the most positive sort of religion -- the parental figure engraved within the person, to be taken wherever they go in life, offering them confidence and value and security.

That's exactly how I see God. Well, in fact, that's how He's taught in my religion, though many of my co-religioners don't see Him that way. But anyway, yes, the "Heavenly Father" aspect of God is the one most prevalent in my life and my worship.

 

[Athenian200]

Over most of this century, clinical psychologists have held a very negative view of religion. This was in part due to the practices of the church back in the Middle Ages, where it was believed that mental illness was a sign that demons and evil spirits had possessed a victim. The treatments were usually exorcism and torture.

This negative view also had to do with the realization that people suffered great distress and dysfunction from having behaviors and thoughts not condoned by their respected religions despite that it was apparent that they were perfectly healthy and normal thoughts and behaviors for people to have. One example being masturbation, which even today many young men seek therapy to remedy, despite it being a perfectly normal behavior. In addition to that, many religious groups came to fabricate myths about behaviors with the intention of inspiring fear in people. Many of these fabrications still exist today.

That's plausible, and I think the church tends towards fabrications (But I think the one you mentioned is rather morbidly self-indulgent behavior that can often lead to unusual fixations and compulsions, although I wouldn't call it a sin.)

Guilt and shame from religious beliefs was often observed in case studies. Freud came to argue that religious beliefs were defense mechanisms that men had developed in order to cope with helplessness. It was forbidden in many clinical practices to even discuss religious beliefs for a good share of the century.

Actually, that makes sense.

Over the last couple decades, it became apparent that some people benefited greatly from spiritual beliefs. Psychologists began to study specifically what beliefs had the greatest positive impact on patients/clients. Researchers systematically studied links between spiritual beliefs and mental health and came to conclude something that I have found extremely interesting. Interpretation is key. Those people who believed in a loving, forgiving, and caring God showed significantly greater mental health than the general population. Whereas those who believed in an authoritarian, judging, and traditionalistic God did not enjoy any benefits or were actually predisposed to psychological disorder.

Since then, clinical psychologists have treated religion as another form of cultural diversity and have pushed for religious individuals to take on a positive interpretation of God.

I was actually quite happy to read this and even look into some of the clinical studies and see for myself. It confirms what I had already concluded.

My conclusion: Being "God Fearing" is bad for you mental health.

Thoughts?

Well, I don't know... religion is okay, but I agree that you shouldn't let it affect your mental health, or become the main focus of your life... that's just not healthy.

 

[Kiddo]

That's plausible, and I think the church tends towards fabrications (But I think the one you mentioned is rather morbidly self-indulgent behavior that can often lead to unusual fixations and compulsions, although I wouldn't call it a sin.)

Well statistics show that its a behavior that 60% of women and 80% of men partake in. While I don't disagree that people can condition themselves to develop unusual fixations and compulsions while engaging in the behavior, I think some predisposition due to other factors are necessary for that to occur. In other words, people who condition themselves to become unhealthy, weren't exactly healthy to begin with. Morbid suggests a disease or unhealthy state, and clearly the act in and of itself is of the norm. As far as being self-indulgent, well any degree of pleasure seeking behavior could be considered that.

 

[Totenkindly]

Well, I don't know... religion is okay, but I agree that you shouldn't let it affect your mental health, or become the main focus of your life... that's just not healthy.

Could you explain a little bit more what you meant by "affecting your mental health" and especially "become the main focus of your life?"

After all, if God is real and he created you and your reality is essentially part of His Vision (as the master Storyteller), it follows (to me) that the most important thing you could do would be to make it the main focus of your life. Otherwise your life will become a lie

(You'd be like Frodo in Lord of the Rings deciding to toss the Ring in the trash and marrying Rose Cotton because he didn't feel like getting out of bed one day -- when his destiny was supposed to be so much more than that. And ultimately his destination and growth as a person would be stilted because he rejected his destiny. After all, if Illuvatar defines reality, then anything that does not conform to Illuvatar's reality is ultimately lifeless, empty, and temporary, the same as morning mist that vanishes when the sun hits it. An illusion of importance and meaning.)

I totally understand why people say it's the "most important" thing in life. How could it NOT be?

Ah, but the question is, is God an authoritarian parental figure or an authoritative parental figure. Both meet the description you gave above, but each has a style that is intrinsically different and produces very different types of children. One produces children that demand power over others in order to maintain control over their lives, whereas the other produces self sufficient children who wish to collaborate with others.

How would we know which is God is? All we have are different doctrines from many different religions, each claiming to have the most "correct" picture of God. But none of them prove God exists and in that form; they simply paint a picture of him, and it's up to us to accept or reject it.

An abused child will see the authoritarian parent as the "real picture" because it's what they know to be true in experience. Hopefully they will find kinder gentler people who love them in life, and suddenly they will realize the possibility that a kinder, gentler, more loving God might exist as well. And so on. Much of what we accept or reject is based on probability of truthfulness as we've learned through our experiences in life so far.

But in the end we decide to believe what we want to believe.

I would align myself with the authoritative parent out of the two, if i have a choice, because I believe in it. I believe it's healthier. I believe it results in more actualized people. And I believe it's more beautiful aesthetically and meaningfully truthful of reality than the authoritarian parent. (I'm not sure we both have the same definition of "authoritative" but I'm picking someone who is the opposite of authoritarian -- essentially the nurturer, encourager, supporter, helper, empowerer, etc, teaching the child how to be self-sufficient in the good sense so that the child has active power to then love others similarly and then setting an example of love so the child has a VISION of how to love others simiarly.)

 

[Athenian200]

After all, if God is real and he created you and your reality is essentially part of His Vision (as the master Storyteller), it follows (to me) that the most important thing you could do would be to make it the main focus of your life. Otherwise your life will become a lie.

For one thing, I don't want to be subject to someone else's vision to the extent that I no longer know or care what I want for myself or anyone else. Also, it's like it forces you to think inside a box, and I don't care for that. I feel like being asked to make religion the focus of life is like being asked to give up my individuality and accept whatever I'm told internally... I may be willing to compromise or even slightly lie and do that externally with social systems and such, but I'm not willing to do that inside, where faith tries to crawl. I also don't think it's a good idea to neglect everything else in your life and become fixated on religion... I just don't think that's healthy.

I totally understand why people say it's the "most important" thing in life. How could it NOT be?

I don't see how it could be. It's mostly related to what happens after you die, and you won't know that until it happens, so you might as well try to use your lifetime. Also, I think it's somewhat irritating when any question asked is simplified to something about having faith and accepting it as it is, because that doesn't seem like a real answer to me as much as an excuse for not really understanding something.

There are a lot of things we probably shouldn't bother to discuss, because we can't see what the other is talking about. Religion is obviously another one of them, sorry.

 

[Totenkindly]

For one thing, I don't want to be subject to someone else's vision to the extent that I no longer know or care what I want for myself or anyone else. Also, it's like it forces you to think inside a box, and I don't care for that. I feel like being asked to make religion the focus of life is like being asked to give up my individuality and accept whatever I'm told internally... I may be willing to compromise or even slightly lie and do that externally with social systems and such, but I'm not willing to do that inside, where faith tries to crawl. I also don't think it's a good idea to neglect everything else in your life and become fixated on religion... I just don't think that's healthy.

I understand all that. And I agree that most religious obsession is unhealthy. Even what sometimes passes for "good" dedication to religion, I have been increasingly reconsidering for the last few years because it seems to be stifling rather than liberating.

I'm simply explaining the mindset of many of the religious people (Christian) that I deal with: If you were created by someone who supposedly has a purpose for you, and designed directly to accomplish that purpose, then doesn't it make sense that your greatest fulfillment would be in discovering that purpose?

(It's like a can opener complaining that it doesn't want to be stifled if it wants to try to be a tire iron. The truth is, it would make a lousy tire iron and the best thing it could ever choose to do would be true to itself and be a can opener.)

Of course, the assumption is that (1) God exists, (2) God created you for a specific reason, inherently, and (3) that reason can be discovered if you search for it.

If you disagree with those assumptions, then you won't think similarly.

I don't see how it could be. It's mostly related to what happens after you die, and you won't know that until it happens, so you might as well try to use your lifetime. Also, I think it's somewhat irritating when any question asked is simplified to something about having faith and accepting it as it is, because that doesn't seem like a real answer to me as much as an excuse for not really understanding something.

I think religion is mostly meant (or functions) to reduce ambiguity in life. And that has been my growing problem with it. Many religions preach such specifics, doctrinally, that I think cannot be proven: They have to be either accepted or rejected as a matter of choice, not proof.

(For example, the whole Trinity concept: You can make a conceptual case for it for why it might make sense, and you can distill the doctrine out of preestablished Christian doctrines, but all of THOSE doctrines and texts and past beliefs are all still based on someone's conjecture/belief and can't really be drawn directly from the Real World around us.)

And you are right. We don't know what happens after death. Everything we believe about that is a belief, not proven. Christians have said, "Here is what happens," just like every other religion has; and they base their lives on the hope those beliefs are true; but again, they are just beliefs and thus personal choices.

I know I've reached a point where I do not feel the need to reduce my ambiguity. I am fine with not knowing what happens after I die. I don't need to know if God is in charge, either, when tragedy occurs. I don't need excuses, I don't need pretty explanations, I don't need reassurance. I don't need to feel like someone is there watching over me. I don't even like discussing theology much anymore or debating it... because it seems like fighting over the merits of an arbitrary, unprovable system... and I am so much more concerned with the tangibles nowadays and what seems to be Real.

Because I think I have internalized what I think is good. I'm going to live in what I consider to be a "good way" (that happens to coincide with "Love God" and "Love your neighbor as yourself") regardless of all the ambiguity I see in the world.

To me, when people internalize the god image or whatever, then the ambiguity no longer has to be reduced. If God has not been internalized, then the only way to find security is to reduce ambiguity by imposing rules on the world... basically reducing the world to a subset that conforms to their point of view.

There are a lot of things we probably shouldn't bother to discuss, because we can't see what the other is talking about. Religion is obviously another one of them, sorry.

Well, I was describing a point of view I don't really hold myself, and I think I was being very clear about that. Why do you think I'm arguing with you on a personal level? I'm merely challenging your view with other points of view I've run across in my lifetime. Unless you hide in a hole for the rest of your life, you WILL run across these viewpoints... and I think it's much better to discuss them with me or someone else who understands your view and can still challenge you with what others might believe.

To me, this seems like one more attempt to reduce ambiguity (by avoiding situations in which one might be challenged)... which is what religious people do.

 

[Wandering]

Could you explain a little bit more what you meant by "affecting your mental health" and especially "become the main focus of your life?"

After all, if God is real and he created you and your reality is essentially part of His Vision (as the master Storyteller), it follows (to me) that the most important thing you could do would be to make it the main focus of your life. Otherwise your life will become a lie

(..)

I totally understand why people say it's the "most important" thing in life. How could it NOT be?

My religion IS the most important thing in my life, for the very reason you've described: if my understanding of God is right, then putting anything else as more important than Him in my life would be both stupid and counter-productive, since doing His will IS the BEST way for me to grow into myself and into happiness.

It would be like a 6-yo telling his parents: "Sorry Mom, Dad, I'm sure you have my best interests at heart, but really I can't bear the way you stifle me at home. I'd rather go and make a living for myself, thanks!" Not only would it be literally suicidal, but it would totally miss the point that the "stifling" is *in the kid's best interests!* Demanding that he go to school and learn to read, write and count, for example, may be very stifling, but it's a GOOD thing in the end. Demanding that he stick to a fixed bedtime may be stifling, but it's in his own interest. And so on. So leaving his parents and going to do it on his own is the WORST choice the kid coud make.

 

[swordpath]

It only makes sense that fearing god and every mistake or sin made tips the scale a little bit more towards damnation. Yeah, I'd say that would do a number on mental health.

Screw religion. That's what I say. No offense to anyone that is religious.

 

[Kiddo]

I wonder if the concept of heaven and hell is where religion has gone so horribly awry. In an attempt to protect themselves and others from eternal damnation, many a person has brought hell upon themselves and others in this life. I refuse to believe that it was God's will for us to judge and persecute each other in this life. The only redemption God has ever asked in return for his forgiveness is love. But because Jesus asked a prostitute to "Go and sin no more" it has fallen to man to judge his brethren for living in sin? Of course, so many pay no heed to the "judge ye be judged".

Ultimately, I think for any religious text to have any value, it must be taken as a whole, and not stripped to quotes out of context. And that seems to be where much of the fear, shame, guilt, and hatred are derived from scriptures.

Sin is between a man and God. No other man may judge another for his sins. These were the very words of Jesus and yet so many suffer because some people choose to worship fear over God. And all this fear mongering from organized religion, the fundamentalist, and liars has paid a terrible psychological toll on the faithful. God's will is that we live a happy and fruitful life, filled with love and forgiveness, and I feel anyone who cannot see that is already lost to hell.

 

[Domino]

Screw religion. That's what I say. No offense to anyone that is religious.

You and your beef bread offend me, sir!

 

[Totenkindly]

I wonder if the concept of heaven and hell is where religion has gone so horribly awry. In an attempt to protect themselves and others from eternal damnation, many a person has brought hell upon themselves and others in this life. I refuse to believe that it was God's will for us to judge and persecute each other in this life. The only redemption God has ever asked in return for his forgiveness is love.

I agree with that. It wasn't the way it was supposed to be, according to the early Bible stories, either.

As I get older, the disparity between the "law" of love and the law of judgment grows wider and wider to me, as I become aware of how each affects the underlying attitudes and mentality of the people subjected to each.

Sin is between a man and God. No other man may judge another for his sins. These were the very words of Jesus and yet so many suffer because some people choose to worship fear over God. And all this fear mongering from organized religion, the fundamentalist, and liars has paid a terrible psychological toll on the faithful. God's will is that we live a happy and fruitful life, filled with love and forgiveness, and I feel anyone who cannot see that is already lost to hell.

I have probably mentioned it elsewhere, but the sheep/goats scene from C.S.Lewis "The Last Battle" always rang very true to me.

When Narnia came to an end, every sentient creature was forced to face Aslan. Those who loved him when they saw him ran towards him. Those who hated him when they saw him ran into the dark. That was the only "judgment," and it cut past any of the little scorecards and checklists human beings like to keep on each other in some misguided attempt to keep each other on their toes. It does not matter, really, how much you screw up or do right, except I suppose to the degree that it impacts your inner attitude and motivation. In the end, does a person desire God/love and be willing to accept their role as a limited creature in the universe, or does God/love threaten them and their own sense of pride and insecurities? We each do make an instinctive choice about those things.

What was remarkable in the New Testament account was that the religious forces (who kept the scorecards) generally had an inflated sense of self and could not accept God, forgiveness (either for themselves and everyone else who they saw as "worse" than themselves), etc., and had to prove and tout their righteousness. And those who knew they were messed up and hurt and imperfect and flawed and thus had no pretenses were much more open to Jesus and loved him.

 

[Wandering]

Kiddo, Jennifer:

 

[swordpath]

You and your beef bread offend me, sir!

haha. I'm real sorry, Piranha. Forgive me?

 

[ptgatsby]

God's will is that we live a happy and fruitful life, filled with love and forgiveness, and I feel anyone who cannot see that is already lost to hell.

That's the only thing that ever made sense to me... and yet, I think that it can also be said without any need for religion. There is a large advantage to living a good life, one that you can be proud of, one in which you have purpose. It's the same reason those that do volunteer work, help others and have a strongly developped moral sense are also happier (or more correctly, less unhappy and more satisfied).

Course, there is an excellent case for being given a purpose through religion being superior in this regard... but I never understood the fire and brimstone version of religion since there are nearly no benefits...

However, I believe that the source of this problem wasn't hell and heaven, it was the transformation of religion from spiritual (read: dealing with individual human needs, as you describe in the OP) to lawful (read: dealing with social order). We've had the discussion before, but every society I know of uses negative incentives to create order... transforming religion into laws means religion must change to a punishment system... and same problems exist for any system designed to punish people, and the same reason heavily authoritarian social systems tax people's will tremendously.

 

[Wandering]

I never understood the fire and brimstone version of religion since there are nearly no benefits...

The concept of benefits depends entirely on what one desires. Fire and brimstone religion is perfect for people who want power over others.

However, I believe that the source of this problem wasn't hell and heaven, it was the transformation of religion from spiritual (read: dealing with individual human needs, as you describe in the OP) to lawful (read: dealing with social order).

Excellent point. The concepts of Heaven and Hell, in themselves, don't appear to be problematic at all to me. After all, they are just that: concepts. It's the USE they are put to that can be problematic.

 

[ptgatsby]

The concept of benefits depends entirely on what one desires. Fire and brimstone religion is perfect for people who want power over others.

Quite right, I should of specified I meant it in terms of the OP - it's not in an individual's psychological best interest to belong to a group like that.

Excellent point. The concepts of Heaven and Hell, in themselves, don't appear to be problematic at all to me. After all, they are just that: concepts. It's the USE they are put to that can be problematic.

I think the concepts are important, although I'm not sure if they cease to be concepts in either situation... "To be happy, live a good life as (x) lived it" - as in Jesus' message, like caring for others, showing empathy, not judging. There are good messages regardless of the time period (even in violent times this seems to be true, if impractical), in terms of how they make one feel about themselves. But this is spiritual - it's how you find peace, or how you find God in yourself. Those are guidelines on how to live a spiritual life. The mere addition of using force to impose beliefs destroys the nature of the guidelines.

The need to impose order and condition behaviour (ie: laws), as in "Stone you to death", "Eye for an eye" kind of behaviour. That's required if religion is to set forth the rules. But "heaven and hell" is just an extension of that - a tangible punishment and reward system for order. That removes the spiritual side - it's easy to see just by asking what good deeds a person has done. Yes, perhaps you only do volunteer work because God or your Church said you should, but you are happier for it. Change that to having volunteer work being a burden you must bear (because God said so, or because the Church said so) and the benefit to yourself is lost. It's a simply attitude change between righteousness (I am better because I did (x)) and simply living life in the best way you can.

In short, righteousness leaves you empty - you'll have to assert dominance again to get the "high". A person satisfied with what they have done - an act for the act's sake, will always find satisfaction in what they did and who they are.

Heaven meant living a good life (ie: a life described in the first case, a more spiritual life, where you could feel good about what your life was... but easily captured as living close to God) while hell meant a lack of good life (even before darkness consumed you/purgatory views, nevermind the brimstone version), one of remorse and so forth.

So while they are concepts, they are very important concepts and they should be taken seriously. You can choose to see life as a series of your choices... to live life well and embrace it. That'll make you happier than the alternative... or you can see life as a burden to bear and drag those around you down.

I obviously think the second is idiocy, but the suffering is their's. I distance myself from those that believe in that way because they poison everyone around them.

 

[Kiddo]

However, I believe that the source of this problem wasn't hell and heaven, it was the transformation of religion from spiritual (read: dealing with individual human needs, as you describe in the OP) to lawful (read: dealing with social order). We've had the discussion before, but every society I know of uses negative incentives to create order... transforming religion into laws means religion must change to a punishment system... and same problems exist for any system designed to punish people, and the same reason heavily authoritarian social systems tax people's will tremendously.

And even the authoritarian law of man is ineffective. That is because people ultimately need to take responsibility for their own lives. It seems that the "fire and brimstone" way of thinking is really what causes the most harm. Sadly, the traditionalistic people will never let go of it. They've developed their belief system and way of life around the idea of crime and punishment.