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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by spin-1/2-nuclei View Post
    I think it would only be natural for a christian to argue against atheism just as it is natural for an atheist to argue against religion, but where these debates tend to go wrong is in lieu of accepting the arguments at face value and prior to entering the discussion accepting that no common ground will be reached - only greater understanding - people instead get batshit insane and start launching attacks on one another's battleships...

    Then nobody can hear over the noise and... by the end of the conversation nothing has been gained. It's just my opinion, but these conversations are typically much more productive when each person refrains from taking the statements of the other personally...

    Obviously you can still have disagreements regarding religions... Two cannon lawyers might disagree on the interpretation of a law or some people may disagree about the interpretation of the bible... but those cases are hardly the equivalent of discussing personal religious beliefs that again cannot be quantified or even proven... whereas when you are arguing specifically about differences within the same religion the certain assumptions are already accepted as true...

    just my two cents..
    I think you have the wrong idea about what I have been writing, because I never made the argument that you can't argue against atheism. What I have been arguing is

    1. that you can't say "Oh look, these 3 geniuses believed in God, therefore there must be something to it" (kevrawlings' appeal to authority, basically) &
    2. 2/3 of kevrawlings' premise is false because Stephen Hawking is an agnostic atheist [1] and Einstein believed in Spinoza's God [2] which is nothing like the personal God that I assume kevrawlings referenced to.*


    *:
    their discoveries were only humble attempts to understand the mind of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevrawlings View Post
    Also, this debate won't go on much longer if Smileyman insists on arguing in pictures. ZING!

  2. #62
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    Yes, Kev and Spin, I am drawing the distinction between conversation and violence.

    It seems to me that conversation and violence are polar opposites.

    And it turns out I am opposed to political violence but am committed to conversation.

    So I look for conversational partners.

    I find them among atheists and theists, but I draw the line at violent atheists or theists.

    So for instance, I am opposed to violent revolution, whether it is of the bourgeois variety of 1776 or whether the proletarian variety of 1917.

    And naturally I am opposed to violent jihad and martyrdom.

    And my Parliament is a good example of the never-ending-conversation, for even when we were facing national extinction in 1942, our Parliament continued to meet and continued our conversation.

    And like the Roman Senate, we would have continued to talk even as the Vandals entered the Chamber with weapons.

    But our greatest weapon is sheer enjoyment - the sheer enjoyment of conversation.

    And we do. We allow ourselves. We allow ourselves enjoyment.

  3. #63
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    You can go by Wikipedia, but the Hawking quote is from the horses mouth. It's clear that he had serious doubts about scientific reductionism.

    As for Spinoza's God, that comma in his name shows ownership and shouldn't be there. Spinoza can have a theory about God, and it should be called something along the lines of "Spinoza's theory on God".

    Either way, unless you're talkin polytheism, God is God is God is God. The theories vary, but the God remains.

    Einsteins quote stands unscathed and still supports theism.

  4. #64
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    Also, by quoting them I only meant to point out a huge flaw in the supposed glaring contradiction between science and faith.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevrawlings View Post
    God is God is God is God.
    And God is God is God, just as a rose is a rose is a rose.

    But some say God is dead.

    While others say God is Dad.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevrawlings View Post
    You can go by Wikipedia, but the Hawking quote is from the horses mouth. It's clear that he had serious doubts about scientific reductionism.
    The horse's mouth being his ex-wife? I understand why you don't trust that source, but even if disregarded he still appears to be an agnostic atheist in the original sense of the two words (go back a few pages and find the post in which ajbalise addresses this).

    Either way, unless you're talkin polytheism, God is God is God is God. The theories vary, but the God remains.

    Einsteins quote stands unscathed and still supports theism.
    I never claimed he wasn't a theist. What I did claim was that he didn't believe in a personal God. Spinoza's God is not a personal God, the kind of God in which you believe and whose existence you are arguing for by appealing to authority.

    And no, Einstein's quote doesn't "support" theism.


    EDIT: And now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna watch a movie. Debates on God and religion always burn me out very fast because of all the semantics, proof-reading and explaining-work, though I will read your response, kevrawlings.

  7. #67
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    YouTube - Eminem - When I'm Gone

    This is an awesome song, man, these Mike's "harder" lemonades are strong! Bein on summer is great . . .

    Random segue, sorry y'all.

  8. #68
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    Oops, I posted this before I read the above comment, didn't mean it as a flippant disregard.

  9. #69
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And God is God is God, just as a rose is a rose is a rose.

    But some say God is dead.

    While others say God is Dad.
    God, to me, is so much more than a paternal figure. Infinitely more. Actually, maybe He could be considered the most paternal figure.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    I think you have the wrong idea about what I have been writing, because I never made the argument that you can't argue against atheism.
    I never said that you did... first I responded to your post stating that he had misinterpreted what Einstein said regarding god.. and I provided a quote and a link that I felt was relevant to that particular post...

    Then I responded to a post that you made regarding kevrawlings arguing atheism which wasn't an attack on your position or his but rather my observation of why a christian might find it natural to argue against atheism just as a atheist might find it natural to argue against christianity and other religions... it wasn't addressed at your points specifically or kevrawlings' points...

    Then I responded to Kevrawlings' post about "blind faith" and that post was not specifically addressed to you, but rather a post about my general observations regarding these types of debates... I did not specifically mention you because I was not debating your position or kevrawlings' position.. I was simply making a statement.. if you don't agree with that statement that's fine but it wasn't directed at you personally so there is no need for you to take it that way...
    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    watch where you're driving f$cktards! I have the right of way!!! :steam:

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