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  1. #121
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevrawlings View Post
    I never said they killed in the name of atheism. I said they were atheists and killed in the name of rationalism.

    Hitler quotes:

    Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

    National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

    10th October, 1941, midday:

    Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

    14th October, 1941, midday:

    The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

    19th October, 1941, night:

    The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

    21st October, 1941, midday:

    Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

    13th December, 1941, midnight:

    Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

    14th December, 1941, midday:

    Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

    9th April, 1942, dinner:

    There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

    27th February, 1942, midday:

    It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
    Scholars have called into question the reliability of the Table Talks.

  2. #122
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Scholars have called into question the reliability of the Table Talks.
    From the article: "The quotes are disputed by some because Hitler is often quoted as publically professing to be a Christian. The simplest reconciliation of this seeming contradiction is that Hitler lied to gain the support of the German people, 90% of whom where professing Christians."

    Was Hitler a Christian?

  3. #123
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    Daedalus, really? Editing your post to cite percentages? I do believe you're failing to see the forest for the trees on this one.

    I can see why you chose, "It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see" as your profile quote.

  4. #124
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevrawlings View Post
    From the article: "The quotes are disputed by some because Hitler is often quoted as publically professing to be a Christian. The simplest reconciliation of this seeming contradiction is that Hitler lied to gain the support of the German people, 90% of whom where professing Christians."

    Was Hitler a Christian?
    Yes I'm aware of the literature on this topic. Problem is it's wrong, or rather takes a wrong approach to the issue. To claim Hitler was your standard Christian(and thus try to piss on christianity as a whole as a result) is wrong, but to just claim he was an atheist who lied to the German public is wrong too.

    Probably one of the best sources out there examining this issue is The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919–1945 by Richard Steigmann-Gall.

    He does note the considerable conflicts Bormann had with several Nazi leaders over religious issues. One example was his feud with Albert Speer, involving among other things trying to rebuild/preserve gothic cathedrals from bombing raids, and even consulting with religious leaders on where churches were to be built in the post-war reconstruction of Berlin. Himmler even made a rule against insulting the person of Christ in the SS, and ridiculing another member's religious beliefs was grounds for immediate expulsion.

    So the issue of Nazism's relationship to Christianity is rather complex, and the question this relationship raises is one that has to be honestly dealt with among Christians. Among other things, it does stress the Christian understanding of man as being a fallen creature who will often seek justification for his evil deeds. But even with his fallen nature, man still has a noble side as well, and this is shown as well in examining this historical issue. Many of the resisters to Hitler's regime were religiously motivated, including Claus von Stauffenberg, the man who lead the July 20 bomb plot. He was a devout Catholic. The Kreisau Circle was a major German resistance group, and openly stated that it opposed the Nazis on the grounds that it violated the Christian principles of the dignity of the human person. Pope Pius XI also condemned Nazi ideology as un-Christian.

  5. #125
    Sniffles
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    Michael Burleigh's Sacred Causes: The Clash of Religion and Politics, from the Great War to the War on Terror is also a good source concerning the relationship between Nazism and Christianity, as well as religion and political ideologies as a whole. It's a sequel to his previous volume Earthly Powers: The Clash of Religion and Politics in Europe, from the French Revolution to the Great War.

    I recommend both books.

  6. #126
    Senior Member kevrawlings's Avatar
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    Sure, common sense tells us that Nazis were un-Christian in their behavior. Did anyone argue that hitler didn't say those things? Are they made up?

    Because if they aren't, I'd say he was clearly an atheist who lied to the German public.

    And I'll check those books out, thanks.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevrawlings View Post
    Sure, common sense tells us that Nazis were un-Christian in their behavior. Did anyone argue that hitler didn't say those things? Are they made up?
    We don't really know at this point.

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