Is Selflessness A Lie?

[Arthur Schopenhauer]

Is the head detached from the body, or is the body detached from the head?

This question is far too subjective for me.

 

[Ginkgo]

This question is far too subjective for me.

Then why are you asking it?

 

[Keps Mnemnosyne]

Social exchange theory versus Empathy-altruism hypothesis seems to be the center of the debate you wish to speak about. Perhaps reading up on Empathy-altruism may solve your quandary.

 

[Arthur Schopenhauer]

Then why are you asking it?

Sarcasm.

 

[Arthur Schopenhauer]

Social exchange theory versus Empathy-altruism hypothesis seems to be the center of the debate you wish to speak about. Perhaps reading up on Empathy-altruism may solve your quandary.

Interesting! Thank you for this information!

 

[Ming]

Do you think the Ennegram 2's should just be crossed out?

 

[Iriohm]

Level Up; It's Happy Time for you.

I get by under the decision that it doesn't really matter whether good deeds are selfish or not. You can't win, you can only choose; It keeps coming down to that. Altruism is a cornerstone of higher society, and higher society is something I would really rather not lose, so I've chosen to support/preserve this higher society by whatever means at my disposal. If that means I'm altruistic, so be it. If that means I'm selfish, so be it.

...Or I could just be doing it for the high. I'm a selfish, selfish person.

High Society: Anything that can, within reason, be considered a significant social advancement. Equality, Justice, etc...

In case you were wondering what I meant by it.

 

[Lark]

Christ! Where's my rifle?!!

 

[Lark]

Social exchange theory versus Empathy-altruism hypothesis seems to be the center of the debate you wish to speak about. Perhaps reading up on Empathy-altruism may solve your quandary.

I think there's a good point there.

 

[wildcat]

So, lately I have been wondering if all actions are selfish actions, including, actions not taken - these still being actions, of their own sort. The premise of my argument is; that an action cannot be selfless, as they selfishly benefit the enactor of the action in some way or form.

To clarify my position, I will provide some examples -- beginning with actions easily identified as selfish, and then moving onto ones slightly more controversial-- of misplaced faith in human selflessness and then breifly support this with my personal philosophies.

Please feel free to challenge my position or offer some examples or thoughts about this subject. I'm sure there are a few people out there who will disagree with me on this subject; such as, those with religious beliefs and perhaps those fond of a more poetic take on life.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NECESSARY AND UNECESSARY ACTIONS ARE SELFISH

• Firstly, I will begin with necessary actions such as breathing, eating, drinking, etc.. These actions are selfish simply because they fulfill our need for survival. All necessary human functions serve a selfish desire - survival; these selfish desires are absolutely necessary for us to function.
  
  Also, mundane actions that are unecessary to sustain ones life, medically, such as blinking, swallowing, showering, etc., are selfish as well, although the reasons as to why are not so straightforward, as they vary from action to action. I won't go into these.

COMPASSION AND KINDNESS ARE SELFISH

• Nextly, actions that would be considered kind, selfless, or compassionate, are also selfish. A good imaginary example of this would be a rather poor old lady who, every weekend, gives dolls to children that are dying of cancer. The average mind, not stupid minds - mind you - but trained minds, would simply accept this seemingly selfless action as just that, selfless. This, I think, is incorrect.
  
  There are multiple reasons as to why this granny could be behaving selfishly, it could be that she gets a warm and fuzzy feeling in her heart - thus she would be giving to recieve this emotion - when she sees the smiles on the childrens faces, or perhaps she believes that she is doing the work of god and wishes to make god happy - this is selfish if she were doing it for spiritual brownie points or even a feeling of closeness to or servitude to god -, or perhaps her daughter died of cancer and she's doing it to relieve herself of guilt or sadness.
  
  I think a big reason as to why I consider this to be selfish is the chemical aspect of what's going on in her brain, as the pleasurable chemicals that cause positive emotions are addicting and extremely desirable. From a scientific standpoint, if she were be doing this for a good feeling, she would be doing it for a chemical reaction. Also, performing acts praised by society, such as what granny is doing, often elicit feelings self-worth and contribution, both of which are pleasurable feelings.

!!!!!! BIG FUCKING EDIT: - I forgot to clarify why I believe all actions are selfish.

ALL ACTIONS ARE SELFISH

• All actions are selfish because in order to act, one has to have a driving internal desire to act. e.g.: Imagine you want a cup; you have a desire for you to reach for the cup, so if you reach for it, you will be fulfilling that desire. This thought can be translated into any action.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe that there are absolutely no exceptions to this rule. -- Also, I was going to write more examples, but time was dragging out and I don't need to explain one idea more than once.

Pierre Salinger already answered this question.

 

[Lark]

The Cake is a lie.

 

[spin-1/2-nuclei]

I challenged this; I went to the root of each act. I stated that the "selfless" are not selfless, and that selfishness creates "selflessness". I think it is not so detached, but more realistic and tangible than the idea of "the most". The root defines the rest, as it is the base of the structure and this is where I aimed. The way I perceive that people perceive the thing is illusory and basic.

Ahh but one problem still remains... why do something selfless for an internal reward when other acts could produce the same if not greater internal reward? If it's all about reward, well our bodies are efficient... so why don't we see people spending their free time doing the same acts over and over (those which are most highly rewarding) and spending their days trying to work towards getting whatever they need to do those acts...

No matter how much you try to generalize this you will always come back to the fact that not all people find selfless acts rewarding, why? Scientifically speaking this would have to be explained before you could make any correlations between internal desire/reward and motive. We are not all motivated by the same things and we do not all have the same internal desires, so what is the source of the difference? That is the real question...

edit: you might find this article interesting Biological Altruism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[Little_Sticks]

^ That's a good point. I was going to mention if we consider someone who rationalizes that they need to receive death or pain to keep others safe would not be selfish because they are not getting anything from it - like Leonidas in 300, fictionally. But your example is better.

Of course, if it is argued that there is still a hint of Fi, Ti, Te, or Fe leading them on and we call that a 'desire', then essentially anything a mind that is aware of itself would do is considered selfish, which doesn't make much sense to me, when we are still acting out the results of our mental functions, much the same as a machine that is argued not to be aware of itself acts out its functions. I would say conscious awareness is an illusion before I say everything a consciously aware being does is selfish, since it precedes the idea of selfish. But now we get into religion and philosophy to answer the question and we are going to have differing unfalsifiable viewpoints, if you understand where I'm coming from.

Well, okay...

 

[Snuggletron]

Christ! Where's my rifle?!!

I've never read her books because I don't really have enough interest to, but why does the majority of the population seem to strongly dislike Ayn Rand?

 

[Stanton Moore]

What's the point of this thread?

If all action is selfish, then why does anyone try to be inclusive or altruistic at all? If ultimately the only 'gain' is more dopamine (or some other neurotransmitter), why does anyone ponder Gandhi or MLK, or anyone, when the same could be derived from a drug or some other, less difficult action? Why do artists produce, and why does anyone else care about their art?
(I think there may be more going on than can be encapsulated in a 'selfish vs. unselfish' dichotomy.)

 

[Ginkgo]

edit: you might find this article interesting Biological Altruism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Yeah I wrote a paper about this last year. Thanks for the link.

 

[Arthur Schopenhauer]

Ahh but one problem still remains... why do something selfless for an internal reward when other acts could produce the same if not greater internal reward?

Uh, it's not selfless if it's done for an internal reward.

If it's all about reward, well our bodies are efficient... so why don't we see people spending their free time doing the same acts over and over (those which are most highly rewarding)

We do see people spending their free time pleasurably, everyday. People consume products, purchase various items of merchandise, go on vacations, have sex, etc..

Things that are undesirable, and sometimes things less desirable under the correct circumstances, are scorned upon, and generally are left alone unless they become necessary.

and spending their days trying to work towards getting whatever they need to do those acts...

The only reason I go to work everyday is because it provides a method towards long-term pleasure. I work for money, obtain that money and then purchase rewarding things.

I scorn work, but it is necessary to continue living and to live comfortably, and living is desrable.

No matter how much you try to generalize this you will always come back to the fact that not all people find selfless acts rewarding, why?

I would think it would be because the actions themselves are not desirable or rewarding for that particular enactor. People are different, thus their personalities and preferences are not shared entirely.

Scientifically speaking this would have to be explained before you could make any correlations between internal desire/reward and motive. We are not all motivated by the same things and we do not all have the same internal desires, so what is the source of the difference? That is the real question...

The source is the difference of preference.

edit: you might find this article interesting Biological Altruism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Ah! That was am interesting read!

 

[figsfiggyfigs]

What about taking a bullet for a loved one?.....
I've always viewed that as a rather selfless act. Loving someone so much, you are willing to give up your life to ensure theirs remains intact.

Is it then selfish to want them to survive?

if you die, would it still be selfish? if you are no longer an element in this person's life.

EDIT: to be fair, I haven't read past the first post.

 

[Arthur Schopenhauer]

^ That's a good point. I was going to mention if we consider someone who rationalizes that they need to receive death or pain to keep others safe would not be selfish because they are not getting anything from it - like Leonidas in 300, fictionally. But your example is better.

I would wonder, if a person had the capacity and ability to save people, an extreme internal desire to do good and to be righteous, coupled by a heavy sense of what is wrong or right, would do if he saw someone suffering and knew he had to offer his life for their protection - I think he would desire to rescue those people in the name of his faiths. I also wonder how he could live with himself if he did not follow his creed.

I've never seen 300 but from what I understand, Leonidas seemed like a man with a passionate perception of duty - both to self and country. Haven't watched the movie though.

 

[Ginkgo]

In Soviet Nature, you don't create altruism, altruism creates YOU!