Do you ever..... ??? (insecurities revealed)

[substitute]

I think the N types might struggle with this more than the S types. As an N, we tend to pay more attention to life "below the surface". That ability to feel invisible in a room full of people must come from our awareness of and attention to the iNtuitive part of relationships. I know I have a deep hunger to be known and understood to my innermost depths. Feeling misunderstood, or not understood, makes me feel alone.

Bingo... I think you're onto it there. I pretty much live through my intuition, and physical actualities sorta pale into irrelevance for me. So the fact that I am noticed as I walk around (I related to YLJ's situation of not being able to go out to buy some bread without being accosted several times on the way) doesn't stop me from feeling invisible. I know I'm noticed and I know I'm frequently in the presence of other people.

But I feel like I'm noticed for the things that don't matter to me, and not noticed for the things that do. And I can feel very alone in a crowded room, even as I'm in the act of being the main entertainment. I kinda feel like people see me as something of a prop, and they appreciate me for the things I can do socially, but they don't know or care about the reasons for why I do them, or why I can do them, or what it means to me, or how it makes me feel etc etc... As long as I'm entertaining people and linch-pinning the party, nobody really cares about my needs, my feelings, y'know, like who I am inside as long as I carry on being witty and energetic and keep coming up with ideas.

I'm very much aware that in these situations where I'm physically seen and stuff, I'm not really seen. I've known people who I've hung out with for years and partied with and been on vacation with and done all kinds of fun/adventurous stuff with them, and yet they still often come out with things about me that show they really don't understand the first thing about me, although I can predict them with almost total accuracy. Times like that always remind me that I am still alone.

Yes... maybe ENxP's and INxJ's are particularly prone to this feeling because of our extreme detachment from physicalities and also extreme attunement to the intangible. It's kind of inevitable that this will happen because so much of who we are, what makes us tick, is just completely inexplicable to someone who doesn't see it for themselves. It's intuitive, and therefore can't be quantified or explained. And the more you try, the more crazy people think you are, and the more misunderstood you are. They think you base your entire being on things that are, to them, imaginary.

edit - and then the worst part about that is that, because it's imaginary, to them, they say it "doesn't matter". That's the killing blow. You know that stuff you just painfully explained that was your soul bared to me on a platter? Well, it doesn't matter. Let's just completely disregard it; it doesn't exist. It's all just in your head. You - you - who you are, your very being as you see it, doesn't exist and is not worth worrying about.

Can anything be more invalidating??

 

[arcticangel02]

Heh... at times I've been so invisible observing a conversation that I was supposed to be a part of that I forgot I was there.

It wasn't until they turned to me and asked me a question that I was sort of like, What? Oh, yeah... This is a conversation, heh, I forgot...

 

[INTJMom]

...
edit - and then the worst part about that is that, because it's imaginary, to them, they say it "doesn't matter". That's the killing blow. You know that stuff you just painfully explained that was your soul bared to me on a platter? Well, it doesn't matter. Let's just completely disregard it; it doesn't exist. It's all just in your head. You - you - who you are, your very being as you see it, doesn't exist and is not worth worrying about.

Can anything be more invalidating??

There's a lot of pain in there.

 

[substitute]

There's a lot of pain in there.

Me? Ha! Nah, I'm just a shallow, fluffy extravert, remember?

*points to pickle sized rep score as evidence of vanity*

Ahem... I was um, talking about how other intuitives might feel. Hypothetically... y'know. Yup, that's it

 

[INTJMom]

Riiiiiiiiight.

 

[substitute]

Riiiiiiiiight.

No fooling fellow N-iods, huh?

Nah actually the really worst part is where you know they only mean well, they actually think that by saying that stuff, they're helping to make you feel better... so you can't even complain about it without people thinking you're not only delusional, but also mean and ungrateful.

 

[miss fortune]

A good sensor would notice all of you guys, whether you were in your world of thought or not- I know that I always notice people. Of course, I people watch between classes when I have time to kill and it's very interesting- some of the people walking by appear so lost in thought that I doubt that they notice that I'm even sitting there looking at them! Others do notice and I can get some fairly nice conversations out of them.

I think that Ns feel ignored because they're usually thinking a lot more than some of us often do and therefore don't notice that people are aware of them! Not saying that this is a bad thing, since I would seriously benefit from spending more time thinking instead of people watching- that's just what I've observed!

 

[substitute]

Thanks w I wasn't really talking about being physically noticed though. I'm actually often quite painfully conscious of the fact that I'm physically noticed. It's a different kind of notice I'm talking about... a sorta wish that some people could or would see into me the way I see into them. Past the exterior... ha, never mind, I'm just muttering

 

[white]

Me? Ha! Nah, I'm just a shallow, fluffy extravert, remember?

*points to pickle sized rep score as evidence of vanity*

Ahem... I was um, talking about how other intuitives might feel. Hypothetically... y'know. Yup, that's it

You've one of the most beautifully tormented handwritings I've ever seen. If depth means ivory tower book knowledge without an understanding of the real world, then yes, you're so fluffy.

INTJmom hit it on the head for me too - in that the invisibility is not so much a physical observation of my presence/absence, but more a sensation that there's only a rare few who can shine a white light into my soul.

I read somewhere that for every N, there're 6 Ses, so to answer targo's question (one of them, at any rate) - I think N's would be more subject to feelings of being invisible - if you inteprete invisibility as not being understood and constantly having to explain why you say/think/feel something.

I'd guess Ses feel invisibility more in the sense that no one notices what they're doing and in physical distances.?

 

[targobelle]

wow this is good reading.

do you think though that 'N's put on an 'air' about themselves? Do you think that there is a wall that they have built up in order to bring protection and keep themselves away? (this is probably type specific though, I shouldn't generalize all N's in here) I mean I live with another N and still I don't think I am noticed in here... that has got to be just a personal observation though.

 

[substitute]

wow this is good reading.

do you think though that 'N's put on an 'air' about themselves? Do you think that there is a wall that they have built up in order to bring protection and keep themselves away? (this is probably type specific though, I shouldn't generalize all N's in here) I mean I live with another N and still I don't think I am noticed in here... that has got to be just a personal observation though.

I have talked about this with my close friend, an ENTJ. We came to the conclusion that just as we believe we're unnoticed by the sensors, because they're not noticing the parts of us we consider most important, only our physical presences and tangible parts... well, in much the same way, we tend not to notice the tangible parts of other people, and we're always busy looking 'into' them, beyond the material and to the inner substance. Because of this, we don't notice and are not impressed by new haircuts, fashionable clothes, nice cars, things like that, which some people want us to notice, so they believe we're not noticing them, because we're often busy looking hard into parts of them that they're perhaps not aware exist, or at least if they are, they don't put much importance in them.

This was a good year or so ago, so I'm not sure how/if my take on that has changed. But it's a definite possibility that N's and S's are, in general, just looking at the 'wrong' parts of each other. We're not noticing the things about each other that the other person wants to be noticed. So we feel ourselves invisible.

I remember my ESFJ sister once telling me that she always got the impression I didn't give a shit and didn't seem to be really listening when she was talking about her latest home improvement or flower arranging or whatever else, but in fact the whole time, though she was right that I wasn't listening to her in the way she expected, I was actually really intently tuned into the undercurrents that she was virtually unaware of, in her own communication. I was able to demonstrate this to her later, when I made an observation about her general way of operating, and gave examples of things she'd told me in the past that betrayed these patterns to me, and she was like 'Wow, it's like you see right into me, how can you know these things? I never told you those things!'

But if she'd asked me what her favourite flower/colour was, or she asked me on the phone to describe her hairstyle, I'd have just made with the Gallic shrugs.

 

[miss fortune]

that reminds me of the time I went on a date with an intp- I was dressed very nicely since I wanted to impress him- and an estj friend had commented on the fact that any guy should be impressed!

unfortunatly my date didn't notice I had to wonder if it would have made a difference if I'd shown up wearing a pair of overalls and a flannel shirt!

very true Substitute- different things are noticed by different types

 

[Domino]

I want to add something here --

My thread about me "not getting" what Ss get out of life and really wanting to understand it applies. If I didn't have my mother and my sister to point things out to me, I'd be so focused on the minutiae of subtle communication that a whole bunch of worth-while and interesting things would go blasting right by me. Ss don't suffer from "immaterial-iality" the same way as Ns.

I can feel alone or invisible no matter how many conversations I've had in the course of day. My shop foreman used to send me out to wangle with the higher ups sometimes because he knew I could be relied on to socialize properly and perhaps get more than what was expected, but conversely, he'd shake a warning finger at me that I was to be back by X-time because there was a real danger of me being tagged and drawn into three or four dialogues en route. I *do* know everybody usually because I deem 99% of the people I meet to be interesting or worthwhile, but I still don't feel any more tangible. I remember writing in my journal over the years that people could physically lay hold of me and I would feel as if it was not my body. I could hear my voice and their's and know we were engaged in something, yet the immaterial sensation remained a constant. I just chalked it up to PTSD or my being "spacey".

I admire - nay, ENVY -- the Senser capacity to be in the moment, to be in their skin. I've been mistaken for S at times because of my capacity to envision or imagine vividly and articulate those things, but when it comes down to grounding those vivid concepts in the real, I flounder, exposing my incredible bankruptcy in S. My S friends make me feel more "real" and less phantom. My mother said she doesn't get the "invisibility" thing herself, but that she's pleased to have N-children because it's broadened her horizons and made her more fanciful.

 

[miss fortune]

makes me wonder if ptsd is different between sensors and intuitives... I wasn't numb to sensations or my surroundings- the littlest thing could trigger unplesant memories- I was just so emotionally out of it that I could have seen my best friend get hit by a truck and I don't think I could have reacted properly... sorry though

 

[substitute]

I *do* know everybody usually because I deem 99% of the people I meet to be interesting or worthwhile, but I still don't feel any more tangible.

Yes, I'm not snobbish or elitist, I believe everyone has something in them I can learn from, EVERYONE, and I take people as they are and without prejudice.

I remember writing in my journal over the years that people could physically lay hold of me and I would feel as if it was not my body. I could hear my voice and their's and know we were engaged in something, yet the immaterial sensation remained a constant. I just chalked it up to PTSD or my being "spacey".

I admire - nay, ENVY -- the Senser capacity to be in the moment, to be in their skin. I've been mistaken for S at times because of my capacity to envision or imagine vividly and articulate those things, but when it comes down to grounding those vivid concepts in the real, I flounder, exposing my incredible bankruptcy in S.

Yes, I relate to that 100%. Bin-fucking-go. Especially the bold part.

My S friends make me feel more "real" and less phantom. My mother said she doesn't get the "invisibility" thing herself, but that she's pleased to have N-children because it's broadened her horizons and made her more fanciful.

Unfortunately, my mother has no similar appreciation for the potential of intuition (and no actual belief it exists), and I'm yet to find a way to tune into S friends' "real-ness" in order to make myself less, as you say, phantom. It's actually fellow N's that make me feel that way. I tend to find that if I can be in the presence of a few strong intuitives for a while, it's like I suddenly become solid and real, and even experience short bursts of Se where I become aware of the physical environment. Sometimes it makes me feel dizzy because I suddenly realize how high a ceiling is that I've sat under a million times and not noticed, or how wide a space is that I've walked across a dozen times. Or I suddenly get a shocking sense of perspective of like, the distance from my head to the ground or I hold my hand up to my face and move it back and forth and laugh because it just seems so ...real for the moment.

Then the moment passes, and I'm back to being a phantom again!

I've seen episodes of Star Trek where a character gets, I dunno, stuck in some different band or frequency of reality through say, a transporter accident, and they're there but nobody can see them. Then they find something to plug into as it were, or some way of communicating across the frequencies, and gradually their body becomes solid rather than transparent/translucent. I've sometimes felt like plugging into other N's, especially ENTJ's with me (for some reason), has that effect on me.

I don't think it's because I've been able to actually cross over to the sensate plain. I think it's more that we've both gone wholly onto the intuitive, which is the one where we're really the most real. We can see each other for real and communicate without all the sensate 'static' in the way, and it's brilliant.

I was just so emotionally out of it that I could have seen my best friend get hit by a truck and I don't think I could have reacted properly...

Yes that's me too. I'm kinda out of it both on the sensate and feeling plains - great!

 

[INTJMom]

I have talked about this with my close friend, an ENTJ. We came to the conclusion that just as we believe we're unnoticed by the sensors, because they're not noticing the parts of us we consider most important, only our physical presences and tangible parts... well, in much the same way, we tend not to notice the tangible parts of other people, and we're always busy looking 'into' them, beyond the material and to the inner substance. Because of this, we don't notice and are not impressed by new haircuts, fashionable clothes, nice cars, things like that, which some people want us to notice, so they believe we're not noticing them, because we're often busy looking hard into parts of them that they're perhaps not aware exist, or at least if they are, they don't put much importance in them.

This was a good year or so ago, so I'm not sure how/if my take on that has changed. But it's a definite possibility that N's and S's are, in general, just looking at the 'wrong' parts of each other. We're not noticing the things about each other that the other person wants to be noticed.
...

I agree with you entirely. That's what it is! We're not noticing what the other type thinks is important to notice! (I wonder if this new insight is going to help me get along better with my ISTP husband.) I will have to pay more attention to this.

The word "important" carries a lot of weight in this concept though. Like, my husband wishes I still weighed 120 pounds like I did when we were married. Well, guess what?! I am never going to look like that ever again. I don't think it's physically possible! To me the inner person is so much more important than what I look like. What does it matter if I can wear a size 5 if I'm mean, vindictive and manipulative? I'd rather spend my energy being a better person than trying to squeeze into some jeans. I really don't get the point. If I really tried hard, I could probably get down to about 135, but that's it.

that reminds me of the time I went on a date with an intp- I was dressed very nicely since I wanted to impress him- and an estj friend had commented on the fact that any guy should be impressed!

unfortunately my date didn't notice I had to wonder if it would have made a difference if I'd shown up wearing a pair of overalls and a flannel shirt!

That's too bad. I'm sure he did notice, but it didn't register on his tongue.

 

[Domino]

makes me wonder if ptsd is different between sensors and intuitives... I wasn't numb to sensations or my surroundings- the littlest thing could trigger unplesant memories- I was just so emotionally out of it that I could have seen my best friend get hit by a truck and I don't think I could have reacted properly... sorry though

I did something similar, where I would overload really quickly, and be unable to filter out bad things. Unfortunately, I already have a great deal of difficulty filtering out bad things even when I'm firing on all cylinders, so the PTSD was a terrible undermining of an already weak spot so I stayed blitzed out 24/7 with occasional emergences into a concrete feeling that I actually existed or that I could respond without my nervous system attempting to crash.

Whatever...

Yes, I'm not snobbish or elitist, I believe everyone has something in them I can learn from, EVERYONE, and I take people as they are and without prejudice.

People are just too dratted interesting, you know! Why just eat the potatoes plain when you can sprinkle gummi bears in them too!

Yes, I relate to that 100%. Bin-fucking-go. Especially the bold part.

So glad to know it's not just me.

Unfortunately, my mother has no similar appreciation for the potential of intuition (and no actual belief it exists), and I'm yet to find a way to tune into S friends' "real-ness" in order to make myself less, as you say, phantom. It's actually fellow N's that make me feel that way. I tend to find that if I can be in the presence of a few strong intuitives for a while, it's like I suddenly become solid and real, and even experience short bursts of Se where I become aware of the physical environment. Sometimes it makes me feel dizzy because I suddenly realize how high a ceiling is that I've sat under a million times and not noticed, or how wide a space is that I've walked across a dozen times. Or I suddenly get a shocking sense of perspective of like, the distance from my head to the ground or I hold my hand up to my face and move it back and forth and laugh because it just seems so ...real for the moment.

Then the moment passes, and I'm back to being a phantom again!

VERY interesting! And I can relate to it as well. The Ns make me feel like I'm not crazy and that my ideas are appreciated on a cellular instinctive level, while the Ss (I tend to know some pretty avant-garde/outside the box Ss) make me feel like I'm not going to blow away in a stiff wind. When I get too much "up in my head", I can get like a cat who's gone up a tree and can't figure out how to get back down. Sometimes, it takes an S with a ladder and their non-negotiable "reality hands" to retrieve me. Perhaps this is more an NF problem than an NT one? My ENTJ likes to be acknowledged in an N way, and she doesn't seem to require an S because her own S works well. I think a lot of NTs I know have been able to access their latent S better than the NFs.

I don't think it's because I've been able to actually cross over to the sensate plain. I think it's more that we've both gone wholly onto the intuitive, which is the one where we're really the most real. We can see each other for real and communicate without all the sensate 'static' in the way, and it's brilliant.

Very very true.

 

[Sandy]

Breaking for station identification...

I'm going to side-track here...

For those who have experienced PTSD, please check out EMDR. The relief that it gave for me was quite unbelievable (and quick, too!)
3-sessions and I was well! I highly recommend it.

Now carry on...

 

[alcea rosea]

Do I remember right that your husband is also ISTP? Mine is too and it seems that looks are quite important for these sensors. I weighed somewhat less when we got married and after having 3 babies... well, you can imagine. I’m not exactly a model. My ISTP keeps on giving me comments about how people with few extra pounds (or a bit more than few pounds) have lack of self-control and people just need to eat less if they want to lose weight. He really appreciates good looks and keeps on noticing the thin & the beautiful. I do think the looks are more important to sensors because they really sense those things better than intuitive people.

About this invisibility thing:
It really might be the N-thing. I have thought a lot lately about the thing that I really haven't been connected to the world in a sensing way. I have always been very much "in clouds" by myself. I always been very much extrovert and talking to people but in a way I have never been there in that place. I have always been more dreaming about the future or planning the future. I've always been somehow in my own mind without noticing what people really react on me or think about my personality. I never really cared what they thought of me and what my impact was on them until recently. One exception here is that I have always sensed people's feelings and moods but never thought what my impact is on them. So I have always felt the interaction was really one way information flowing from a person to me like I really didn't exist.

So I have felt transparent. I’m there but I’m not there at the same time. I interact with people but I do not really connect (except couple of times). I have impact on people but I don't notice that I do.

Weird isn’t it?

 

[INTJMom]

Do I remember right that your husband is also ISTP? Mine is too and it seems that looks are quite important for these sensors. I weighed somewhat less when we got married and after having 3 babies... well, you can imagine. I’m not exactly a model. My ISTP keeps on giving me comments about how people with few extra pounds (or a bit more than few pounds) have lack of self-control and people just need to eat less if they want to lose weight. He really appreciates good looks and keeps on noticing the thin & the beautiful. I do think the looks are more important to sensors because they really sense those things better than intuitive people.
...

I've had 3 children, too. I know it's important to him, so I'm trying to psyche myself up to make it more important to me. I am not a physically disciplined person, and I don't have a lot of energy, but if I knew of a program that worked where I could lose some weight and strengthen my muscles, I would be interested. Not so I could "look good", but so that I would be healthier and probably feel better, too.