If Christ was completely without sin...

[Oberon]

Guys, PLEASE don't argue with Victor. Don't even attempt it.

I kind of like the man personally, but with Victor the normal rules of forum interaction don't apply, and threads in which he is a central character frequently turn into sh!tstorms. So let it be, please.

 

[Lark]

So you're for the tradition or against? I'm not following between your paragraphs.

I'm an RC, we're all about the tradition.

 

[Lark]

Guys, PLEASE don't argue with Victor. Don't even attempt it.

I kind of like the man personally, but with Victor the normal rules of forum interaction don't apply, and threads in which he is a central character frequently turn into sh!tstorms. So let it be, please.

Yeah, I used to think that people over reacted to him but its like he cant handle interaction and has to drive you away, no matter how many allowances you make for him.

 

[swordpath]

I refuse to believe Victor is a real human being... kind of like Jesus.

 

[gromit]

How much of the bible is metaphor and then literal? How are we to be expected to properly translate what the fuck is being said or instructed? There's so much ambiguity about the whole subject, that it's just ridiculous to me that someone can be confident that they're "living the right way" in following the God of the bible.

I tend to think of it almost entirely as metaphors/symbolism/mythology...

However I would say it's less about living a specific "right" way and more about personal growth and gaining insight into the spiritual universe and that sort of thing.

 

[Forever_Jung]

How much of the bible is metaphor and then literal? How are we to be expected to properly translate what the fuck is being said or instructed? There's so much ambiguity about the whole subject, that it's just ridiculous to me that someone can be confident that they're "living the right way" in following the God of the bible.

It is tricky isn't it? I think if people are too confident they're worshiping wrong, because your beliefs and values are sort of sharpened on the knife of doubt. If you are overly sure, then chances are you're not looking closely enough.

The Bible reminds me of parents that make up cautionary tales to scare their kids into being good. "Don't run with scissors because little Suzy ran with scissors and she tripped and you know what happened? The bogeyman stabbed her in the eye." Mind you, the Bible is usually more eloquent than your average parent.

 

[sLiPpY]

Off topic, but God Vs. Adam is so fucked up, I don't care what the stakes are... It's this all knowledgeable and powerful being, versus a weak human being, made by this all knowledgeable and powerful being. "Hey, if you give into the instincts and desires I gave you, you're damned! Hah!" -- "If you resist natural urge, uhh, well, maybe I won't condemn the rest of the world to pain and suffering for the duration of it's existence. Hah!"

It's kind of psychotic?

 

[gromit]

It is tricky isn't it? I think if people are too confident they're worshiping wrong, because your beliefs and values are sort of sharpened on the knife of doubt. If you are overly sure, then chances are you're not looking closely enough.

Well I think if you're TOO confident/arrogant then there's a good chance you'll miss additional insight which might come your way.

 

[Forever_Jung]

Well I think if you're TOO confident/arrogant then there's a good chance you'll miss additional insight which might come your way.

Yeah that's what I meant

 

[JivinJeffJones]

I thought this was going to be a thread about original sin. :disappoint:

 

[Mole]

The Bronze Age Nightmare

I thought this was going to be a thread about original sin. :disappoint:

In the myth both Christ and his mother are free from Original Sin.

According to the myth Christ was not conceived through carnal desire.

And it is carnal desire that is seen as the Original Sin.

And it is the carnal desire for a woman that is a the Original Sin, for Eve tempted Adam.

And this is the basis for the misogynist myth.

Fortunately, "The Origin of Species", and the sequencing of the genome show us there was no Adam and Eve and so no Original Sin.

And if there is no Original Sin, there is no need for the blood sacrifice of Christ to his Father.

And at last we can start to wake up from this Bronze Age nightmare.

 

[Nonsensical]

Jesus is just an idea like Victor is saying. I think he's right.

Good thread, Beat.

The actual jesus, if there was such a man, wasn't probably without sin, and was carnal.

 

[gromit]

 

[Forever_Jung]

For the record, when Jesus said: "He who is without sin, may cast the first stone," he didn't cast any stones. Suspicious for someone who is without sin...

 

[Lark]

Sin was also something different from impure thoughts to be honest or the experience of emotions/affects and impulses you know? Especially in his day, sin was something which could even be manifest in illness, this is why it was significant he was able to heal people, I mean out of that context it could appear like he was little more than an itinerant healer and philosopher.

BTW in the passage where he asks those without sin to cast the first stone he states that he will not condemn the woman either when the others all go away, so he could have but choose not to (there is the Irish joke that he said "Ma, put that stone down" first because if you remember his mother was supposedly without sin too).

 

[Forever_Jung]

BTW in the passage where he asks those without sin to cast the first stone he states that he will not condemn the woman either when the others all go away, so he could have but choose not to.

It was a cop out. Uh....I am without sin, I just don't wanna. Funny Irish joke though.

I don't think it's important whether or not he is without sin, he's a symbol to me not the actual son of God. The Queen is the head of the U.K. but she has no actual power because as an individual she is just a normal person, she wasn't appointed by God or anything. Her importance is largely symbolic. You might argue Jesus has more symbolic importance than Elizabeth, and I would be inclined to agree, which is why she doesn't have as big of a jurisdiction as Jesus.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

Was he actually a carnal man, as you or I am?

I think that he desired women if that is what you mean. But at the same time I think he was more concerned with helping the women around him, rather than simply getting his rocks off.

 

[foolish heart]

Romans 8:1-14

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[g] And by him we cry, "Abba,[h] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.



My interpretation of the nature of Christ is that he is of sin in the sense that man is inherently sinful and He was born as a son/offspring of man, but a man who's spirit is God Himself. He is just like every other man except His spirit is entirely righteous (acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin) meaning His death and divine resurrection equalized the sins of all humanity in terms of God's law. In "God's courtroom", there must be total justice, but if we plead on behalf of Luke 23:34 (Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.") i.e. admit our ignorance/sin, recognize Jesus as God and a worthy sacrifice for our sin, and accept this forgiveness then the penalty of death (eternal) is waived.

 

[Mole]

His spirit is entirely righteous (acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin)

What is interesting is that the myth teaches us, that not only He was free from Original Sin, but his Mother was also free from Original Sin.

 

[Mole]

The Queen of Austalia

The Queen is the head of the U.K. but she has no actual power because as an individual she is just a normal person, she wasn't appointed by God

I remember Elizabeth being ordained by God in Westminster Cathedral.

And for sixty years Elizabeth Regina has regarded herself as ordained.

And indeed Queen Elizabeth II is the ordained Queen of Australia.

And in 1999 all Australians, except for one small territory, voted to keep Elizabeth as the ordained Queen of Australia.