The Traditional Values Poll

[miss fortune]

A humorous thought. Two of the three highest traditional values are fidelity in marriage and being against addictive drugs, and yet whenever you hear about some staunch politician being in trouble for something, it usually involves an affair or a drug problem. Coinkydink?

but that's what brings joy into my life as a poli sci major!

and it's always the "family values" types too...

 

[nottaprettygal]

Is religious freedom (the only one I voted for) a family value?

Discuss.

 

[Totenkindly]

Is religious freedom (the only one I voted for) a family value?

Not really. (It should be, but in practice (by this sort of crowd), it's emphatically not.)

As long as you practice the religion of the family, you're free; as soon as you switch to a different religion, though, you aren't really welcome anymore.

That's what makes it all even more ironic... and sad. ("What a sad, lonely, old man you are.")

 

[Oberon]

...and it's always the "family values" types too...

That's because when the other guys do it, it's not news.

Imagine if Barney Frank gets picked up in a sting trolling for mansecks in an airport men's room. That's not exactly a scandal. It probably should be, but it's not.

 

[Ivy]

Any time sex is spelled secks, I can't help but laugh.

I think FOX would probably leap on that story, though.

 

[miss fortune]

That's because when the other guys do it, it's not news.

Imagine if Barney Frank gets picked up in a sting trolling for mansecks in an airport men's room. That's not exactly a scandal. It probably should be, but it's not.

I'm not amused at what they've done really, just that they were preaching against other people doing it! Nothing better than a hypocrite getting called out for it!

and Barney Frank getting caught with another man really wouldn't shock anyone I doubt!

 

[Roger Mexico]

A humorous thought. Two of the three highest traditional values are fidelity in marriage and being against addictive drugs, and yet whenever you hear about some staunch politician being in trouble for something, it usually involves an affair or a drug problem. Coinkydink?

I find that persistent, vociferous condemnation of others' supposed vices is oftentimes part of an attempt to compensate for shame.

And you know everyone who who has a "moral" objection to homosexuality is secretly gay, right?

 

[Magic Poriferan]

I find that persistent, vociferous condemnation of others' supposed vices is oftentimes part of an attempt to compensate for shame.

And you know everyone who who has a "moral" objection to homosexuality is secretly gay, right?

I do believe projection does happen, but I really hate it when people take that as a rule of thumb.
"You know Gandhi was secretly murdering children, right?"
No. No he wasn't. People can actually set good goals and be faithful to them. You can even criticise others for their flaws, and be an honest person yourself.

 

[Totenkindly]

And you know everyone who who has a "moral" objection to homosexuality is secretly gay, right?

... wait. This was a joke (?)

 

[Roger Mexico]

... wait. This was a joke (?)

Yes, it was. That doesn't mean it isn't true, however.

I do believe projection does happen, but I really hate it when people take that as a rule of thumb.
"You know Gandhi was secretly murdering children, right?"
No. No he wasn't. People can actually set good goals and be faithful to them. You can even criticise others for their flaws, and be an honest person yourself.

Yes, but preoccupation with others' personal business based on vague assertions about its connections to legitimate public concerns (the modus apparandi of most "culture warriors") tends to raise a red flag. I don't spend my time worrying about other people's sex lives or how they entertain themselves (alcohol/drugs/gambling/pornography), so I have to wonder what makes a person decide to make such a subject the focus of a personal crusade. Often as not, I think the need to "take a stand" in this way reflects a need to assuage the tension of an inner struggle by transposing it into a public arena. Gandhi's a poor example--he had a legitimate gripe with the way his society was organized. Mark Foley and his ilk have built careers out of turning other people's private lives into political issues.

 

[gretch]

My initial answer before I read the thread:

Things that are a must for all people, in order to be a human:
Religious Freedom
This is the basis of the human soul, the freedom of choice.
Religion, I believe is also a basis of ideology.

Things I think are a good idea, that are necessary for my spirituality, but I would never force another to do. (see above)
Abstinence before Marriage- My husband and I both waited. I think it made it better, but I have no idea what it would be like to have sex with someone else, so i cannot pretend to know that. I think that in the end it was rewarding, and I think I would have regretted it with someone else. Just because it's so intensely personal for me. I also think that it would be a good choice for others, help keep STD's in check etc, but I would never force that on someone.

Fidelity in Marriage- If you make a promise, you keep it. Obviously. I don't need the institution of marriage to tell me that I should keep my word. If I kiss someone it's because I am in a relationship with them. That's what that means to me.

Against Pornography- pornography is said to be art. Lots of things are art. In fact, everything is. this is not a reason to like or agree with it. My reasons for being against it are the same as being against the basic masochism in our culture/world. Most movies are centered around the woman being the ultimate attainment, an object to be gotten. Television shows, everything. I can appreciate the art argument, but I don't necessarily agree with the nude pictures of a few hundred years ago either. Though I do believe that the human body is incredibly beautiful, and entrancing. I would condone personal pornography -as in making it with your partner. It is not shameful, it is sacred, and I believe that those two terms should be defined correctly. Though I am not for outlawing porn because I am against it. I am against it trying to creep into my home via internet. If I want porn, I can get it. I don't want it in my email, I don't want popups. This is an invasion of my rights, if I don't want to see it, I shouldn't have to.

Against Alcohol,Against Addictive Drugs: I have seen the long term effects on too many people in my personal life. If you can use alcohol sparingly, by all means. I've seen what these have done to my cousins through their parents, I've seen them kill a few of my friends. I don't think people know what they're getting into when they start using, especially the harder ones. Not to mention they accelerate mental illness. This is not a good personal choice, because it doesn't stop with you.


other
Patriotism: You know, i realize that there is a lot of bad in this country, but it's what I got, and I can make a difference and change it. I believe that even the most liberal agenda-ed person is practicing patriotism. I do not believe in patriotism as an noun, but as a verb. The fact that we can love and change a place and our government is a good thing. Not perfect, but at least it's better in comparison to former world powers. I may hate the president, but at least I get to vote come next election.

Right to Life: Against Abortion and Euthanasia: Euthanasia? Not against that necessarily. I'm assuming they are talking about animals. But I am against abortion. Back in the day maybe not, but there is no reason for unwanted pregnancy nowadays. There are too many free and available resources to ensure you don't get pregnant. I am pro choice. Hey, you chose to have sex with out protection, and you created a child. Welcome to being a species. There are no good arguments save in cases of incest, rape, and if the mother is going to die or something. Babies are fully formed after 10 weeks. I think that they should at least tell the mothers that the baby will feel pain, and that that baby is actually alive. If you don't want a baby, give it up. there are plenty of people out there, like my sister, who are waiting for a child. I'm not passing a condemnation and hellfire judgment on people, I'm just saying that I don't think people really put it into perspective most of the time. I just look at my little girl and I see her potential, what does it matter if she's a week inside my womb or 20? she's still the same person. I am not against outlawing abortion, but I think women should be told before hand that it has been scientifically proven that the child feels pain. Watch Can I Live, by Nick Cannon.

Against Homosexual/Bisexual/Transgender behavior I am against people being defined by their sexuality. One of my best friends is gay, and he's the best person I know, but I really hate that people can't see past the I'm a homosexual flag. Big deal. I do think that men and women are inherently different (heh), and that the ideal situation for a child to be raised in is with both a mother and a father, but I know a zillion gay people that would make WAY better parents than some of those other idiots out there. Love is the key to raising children, and I leave that to personal digression.


Against Gambling: I have no personal experience with the effects on this. I'm not all that into it though.

What do these even mean?
Intolerant to any behavior that may destroy individuals, families, and our culture. I am against intolerance by it's very definition.
Discrimination is the wisdom of choosing between good and evil. this statement is too vague and too absolute for my taste.
The Ends Justify the Means. Rarely.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yes, but preoccupation with others' personal business based on vague assertions about its connections to legitimate public concerns (the modus apparandi of most "culture warriors") tends to raise a red flag. I don't spend my time worrying about other people's sex lives or how they entertain themselves (alcohol/drugs/gambling/pornography), so I have to wonder what makes a person decide to make such a subject the focus of a personal crusade. Often as not, I think the need to "take a stand" in this way reflects a need to assuage the tension of an inner struggle by transposing it into a public arena. ... Mark Foley and his ilk have built careers out of turning other people's private lives into political issues.

I don't disagree that such people exist. (Obviously they do.)

I simply spent most of my life immersed in a religiously conservative environment where most of the people did not possess inner homosexual inclinations but simply were brought up believing homosexuality to be wrong, for many reasons:

- To produce offspring naturally, you need a male and female.
- God made males and females just for this reason.
- Males and females are different.

"Common sense" coupled with holy writ told them that homosexuality was not the ideal and was wrong. So it's more of a training/intellectual thing.

There are also those who just happened to be repulsed by it, just like some people are repulsed by various sexual practices that are not "pure vanilla."

So right there are at least two alternate reasons besides yours why people might oppose homosexuality.

 

[gretch]

Religious Freedom: I have a different definition of religious freedom than most. See, everyone says that people should be allowed to worship as they please. That's fine, and I agree with that, but by preaching, or recruiting other people to your religion from theirs, you're not REALLY allowing people their religious freedom. Therefore, I believe, that if 'religious freedom' were in effect, no one would know it, because no one would ever talk about their religion. Arguments and debates aside, no matter what anyone says, about god, or about science, or about ANYTING, it has some effect on other peoples' entire psyche and beliefs and all that, even if only on negligible scale.

I actually agree with this belief. I think ideas should be shared and exchanged, if they weren't we'd all be living in a black hole, and there would be no reason for language or art or anything. I hate it when people use this argument to say that in the end nothing matters. If nothing matters, we just start at the beginning and everything starts mattering again.

Right to Life: Against Abortion and Euthanasia: No. I'm not one of these pro choice assholes, I just don't think that this whole "life" thing is so sacred. I view computers as a form of life. Not carbon life - silicon life. I've got some evidence and well thought out arguments to support it, so it's not like what I'm saying is unfounded.

So you are in essence saying that is someone came and murdered your family you would feel the same way you would when your computer died?

Being intolerant to any behavior that may destroy individuals, families, and our culture: I don't really care for this culture (as you can see by my hatred for the above defining principles). I don't really care for any culture. Culture detracts from creativity, and enforces capitalism and racism among other insignificant things. It's one of the greatest hinderances to the acquisition of truth ever created.

Culture, in my belief is the medium of expression and creativity, this goes against your definition above. A society with out culture would be a culture-less...well, culture. If we are never pushing lines and redefining culture, the things that we do have no significance. We just start at the beginning. What do you think? I may be on the wrong track.
But I appreciate your insights. Stimulating and well thought out.

Fool! You shall call me Jadis, Queen of Charn, and lay prostate at the feet of my terrible beauty!

Do you mean prostate? or prostrate? I had a friend who played Adriana in the Comedy of Errors and always mixed these two up. It was seriosuly the funniest thing.

 

[Urchin]

Right to Life: Against Abortion and Euthanasia: If you were raped, abortion is fine. If your child is a freak (retarded or otherwise deformed), abortion should be mandatory. But if you had sex without a condom, it's your own damn fault. It's not that I like children, I just hate morons.

By this logic you should want the fetuses of non-condom users aborted. It keeps them from passing on their brilliance.

 

[gretch]

By this logic you should want the fetuses of non-condom users aborted. It keeps them from passing on their brilliance.

HA!

 

[The Ü™]

By this logic you should want the fetuses of non-condom users aborted. It keeps them from passing on their brilliance.

This isn't about logic, it's about an innate desire to make others suffer. I'm suffering because I am a shy male who can't get any and I can't find anyone to blame and so I am incredibly angry. Watching others suffer can relieve that a little.

 

[Kiddo]

This isn't about logic, it's about an innate desire to make others suffer. I'm suffering because I am a shy male who can't get any and I can't find anyone to blame and so I am incredibly angry. Watching others suffer can relieve that a little.

 

[Varelse]

This isn't about logic, it's about an innate desire to make others suffer. I'm suffering because I am a shy male who can't get any and I can't find anyone to blame and so I am incredibly angry. Watching others suffer can relieve that a little.

At least you're honest.

 

[miss fortune]

This isn't about logic, it's about an innate desire to make others suffer. I'm suffering because I am a shy male who can't get any and I can't find anyone to blame and so I am incredibly angry. Watching others suffer can relieve that a little.

damn it! now you're making me feel bad about being mad at you!

 

[Oberon]

This isn't about logic, it's about an innate desire to make others suffer. I'm suffering because I am a shy male who can't get any and I can't find anyone to blame and so I am incredibly angry. Watching others suffer can relieve that a little.

I'm married and I get laid on a fairly regular basis. It feels really good. Feel free to hate me at your leisure.